Trump II

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

True, what is actually happening is an alternative interpretation of facts....

Interpretation of facts is a different story. I am talking about alternative facts as a legitimate concept.

[Kevin Gallagher]

 Jeff, I'm sorry but I just can't engage with anyone who believes that CNN and it's ilk are fair and balanced. Before any of you try to jam FOX news down my throat, I am not a viewer of it either. I get most of my news from print newspapers (online versions) and some from network news websites. As far as what other countries think of us, I really don't give a damm. If things are so bad here in the good ol' USA why of the rest of the world so desperate to live here??


Kevin in CT

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

those efforts pale vs such propaganda masterpieces as "WMD in Iraq" or "Gulf of Tonkin" you did not bother to check how many people died because of just these 2 vs "their sole activity", did you ?

Didn't know we were discussing that propaganda here. Do we? Anyway, give it a bit of time and the casualties will start piling up in this case as well. "The first casualty when war comes is truth" (attr. Hiram Johnson (USA)), as usual.

Cheers,
Bart

BTW, I do not read "UNIAN", I didn't even know it existed until Google linked to it, but I did read/view the official reportings of the Official Safety Board investigation committee of the MH17 massacre by a Russian BUK rocket. What followed was a fine example of spreading Fake news and Alternative false facts.

The BUK rocket was transported to the Ukraine conflict zone from Russian territory, launched, and the launcher was returned to Russian territory in order to allow denial of Russian involvement in launching, the Ukrainian forces were mentioned by Fake news as launching the rocket, and then a fighter plane was supposed to have take the passenger plane down, and then Russia said that their radar systems show something different, yet the radar data was not provided to the investigators, then the radar data that was provided was in a non-standard international format and was thus unusable. The investigation and conflicting Fake news and conflicting Alternative facts (usually shortly preceding official report updates and announcements) is continuing as we speak.

[Alan Klein]

American geopolitics (and Russian and some others) are a major feeding ground for radical Jihadists. The Muslim ban (masqueraded as immigration policy) is a major help to those hate preachers for recruitment, and also for home-grown terrorists who get their indoctrination fake news from the internet.

For instance, why Iran, and not Saudi-Arabia on the Ban-list? Geopolitics, for oil, and for weapons delivery, and for regional influence.

The Trump administration (supported by the Republican party representatives in congres) feeds the negative sentiments around the world, as well as at home.

Cheers,
Bart

Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US.  While it's true that many 911 terrorists came from  Saudi Arabia, that was 16 years ago and things have changed.  Both countries have very strong anti-terrorist organizations that work together.  It's easier to vet people coming from Saudi Arabia because of this.   That isn't true with Iran.  Our security agencies don't work together.  Also, Iran has been an adversary of the US since their revolution and a state sponsor of international terrorism.  They've provided arms to others who then kill American soldiers.  Finally, if Trump did apply the ban Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries in general, you would be arguing it is a general Muslim ban rather that a target specific ban of countries where the governments are in poor condition to vet travelers to the USA.

Finally taking a pause in letting people in from war torn areas to figure out how to vet them properly before entering should lessen the chance we'll wind up like what's going on in Europe.  Why should America jump into the same quagmire that Germany and others have done?

[scyth]

Didn't know we were discussing that propaganda here. Do we?

surely you prefer to discuss the more convenient propaganda, instead of inconvenient one ... like that evil Putin who does not want to cooperate - here is what cooperation that US means, example = http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/07/the-strategic-suicide-of-aligning-with-russia-in-syria/ =

"In the summer and early fall of 2016, during the negotiations over a potential “Joint Implementation Center” to conduct coordinated targeting against Nusra and the Islamic State, Obama insisted that Moscow enforce a nationwide ceasefire (including in besieged Aleppo) and ensure unfettered humanitarian access across Syria for the United Nations as preconditions. Obama also required that, if and when the Joint Implementation Center was established, Russia commit to following the laws of war, avoid targeting the moderate opposition, ground Assad’s air force over most of the country, provide the United States a veto over Russian counterterrorism targets, and press the Assad regime back into negotiations on a political transition. Ultimately, the Russians proved unable or unwilling to convince Assad (and Iran) to meet these conditions, and the proposal collapsed."

how dare Putin refuse to give US veto over Russia while not being offered the veto over US strikes... he is really not a reliable partner, is he  ... so what exactly Putin was offered that was beneficial for him and not for US ? a single item please ?

so no wonder that Kerry was told to go and f..k himself 

[James Clark]

Yet another example of a high-educated, yet low-information voter.

Anti-intellectualism is a core problem on the right these days, sadly, and it's disappointing to see someone like you buy into it.  Note that I'm not suggesting that practical or widely-ranging alternative sources of education and learning are any less valuable in the grand scheme of things, but the dismissal of formal higher education and upper-level experience as somehow not appropriate for a "real American" is an attitude that fosters populist nonsense based on "common sense" that oftentimes turns out to be wrong.

[James Clark]

surely you prefer to discuss the more convenient propaganda, instead of inconvenient one ... like that evil Putin who does not want to cooperate - here is what cooperation that US means, example = http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/02/07/the-strategic-suicide-of-aligning-with-russia-in-syria/ =

"In the summer and early fall of 2016, during the negotiations over a potential “Joint Implementation Center” to conduct coordinated targeting against Nusra and the Islamic State, Obama insisted that Moscow enforce a nationwide ceasefire (including in besieged Aleppo) and ensure unfettered humanitarian access across Syria for the United Nations as preconditions. Obama also required that, if and when the Joint Implementation Center was established, Russia commit to following the laws of war, avoid targeting the moderate opposition, ground Assad’s air force over most of the country, provide the United States a veto over Russian counterterrorism targets, and press the Assad regime back into negotiations on a political transition. Ultimately, the Russians proved unable or unwilling to convince Assad (and Iran) to meet these conditions, and the proposal collapsed."

how dare Putin refuse to give US veto over Russia while not being offered the veto over US strikes... he is really not a reliable partner, is he  ... so what exactly Putin was offered that was beneficial for him and not for US ? a single item please ?

so no wonder that Kerry was told to go and f..k himself 

No wonder... Except you bolded the wrong things.  Here - I've helped you out.

[scyth]

Saudi Arabia is an ally of the US.

any murderer who is an ally gets a free pass and weapons

They've provided arms to others who then kill American soldiers.

you remember what USA & Co did in the first place to Mohammad Mosaddegh ? atonement was due ...

[Alan Goldhammer]

Interpretation of facts is a different story. I am talking about alternative facts as a legitimate concept.

If it is legitimate, how so?  What is the difference between an 'alternate fact and a lie?'  Here is an easy one, President Trump said it stopped raining and the sun came out shortly after he began his inauguration speech.  Weather radar, those broadcasting the event, as well as my own personal experience in being outside that day about three miles from where he spoke showed otherwise.  Now Ms. Conway would claim that President Trump's statement is an alternate fact.  I would say it is a lie.  Which is the legitimate concept?

[Alan Goldhammer]

Anti-intellectualism is a core problem on the right these days, sadly, and it's disappointing to see someone like you buy into it.

Not just today!  As anyone who has read the works of the great American political scientist, Richard Hofstadter, well knows, anti-intellectualism has a long and storied life in the US.  In fact it was the title of one of his books.

BTW - Nordstrom stock is up another 3% this morning.  Keep up the Tweets Mr President!!!

[scyth]

No wonder... Except you bolded the wrong things.  Here - I've helped you out.

let me translate for you

"ensure unfettered humanitarian access across Syria" - did you notice that once Aleppo was finally freed from your friends somehow nobody in the West remembers that urgent need to feed the people of Aleppo... no need for propaganda anymore, isn't it ? no need to resupply "opposition" so that they continue to use civilians as human shields ?

"Russia commit to following the laws of war" - whose laws ? you probably mean nuking couple of towns full of civilians to save soldiers ? that was a noble cause for sure - but others are certainly not allowed to save their soldiers, are they ?

"avoid targeting the moderate opposition" - while US & Sunni Co supply them with weapons so that they can continue to murder people and use civilians as human shields in Aleppo and elsewhere

"ground Assad’s air force over most of the country" - so that so called "moderate" terrorists can get an advantage over the Assad, nice try 

---

the sole purpose of what US suggested was to put Assad & his allies into every possible disadvantage...

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Anti-intellectualism is a core problem on the right these days, sadly, and it's disappointing to see someone like you buy into it.  Note that I'm not suggesting that practical or widely-ranging alternative sources of education and learning are any less valuable in the grand scheme of things, but the dismissal of formal higher education and upper-level experience as somehow not appropriate for a "real American" is an attitude that fosters populist nonsense based on "common sense" that oftentimes turns out to be wrong.

How did you read all that in my post? I meant none of that ("dismissal of higher education...") My point was different. That in spite of high education, which typically happens in one narrow area, a specialized field, we might sometimes resort to a quick and erroneous judgment in some other areas of knowledge. Hence my comment of "high-education, low-information."

[Alan Goldhammer]

For all the Trumpians here do you not think his response about his Supreme Court nominee's comment about an early Tweet questioning the judiciary system is not disturbing?  If we do not have an independent and fearless judiciary then we are no better than a banana republic (with apologies to all countries that export bananas).

[Alan Goldhammer]

My point was different. That in spite of high education, which typically happens in one narrow area, a specialized field, we might sometimes resort to a quick and erroneous judgment in some other areas of knowledge. Hence my comment of "high-education, low-information."

I don't understand what you mean about 'high(er) education, which typically happens in one narrow area, a specialized field.'  It's been my experience that most if not all colleges and universities require multiple courses outside one field of interest.  Even so the pioneering work of Tversky and Kahneman have show your statement is really not linked to education at all.  Lots of people suffer from perception bias in lots of situations.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

If it is legitimate, how so?  What is the difference between an 'alternate fact and a lie?'...

While alternate facts can be misused to represent lies, the concept itself is legitimate.

Example: a glass containing 50% of water (fact #1) can be described as half-full (fact #2) or half-empty (fact #3).

Or for those who prefer a visual explanation, here is the best one:

[James Clark]

How did you read all that in my post? I meant none of that ("dismissal of higher education...") My point was different. That in spite of high education, which typically happens in one narrow area, a specialized field, we might sometimes resort to a quick and erroneous judgment in some other areas of knowledge. Hence my comment of "high-education, low-information."

To answer your question, I find your defense of the "alternative facts" argument curious, and when combined with,  what you have to admit (even if you're not making it yourself) could easily be read as a now-standard critique from the right (a class-based attack centered on attacking higher education and the alleged "bubble" it creates) I assumed you were making the "out of touch intellectual" argument.

If you are saying that was an incorrect read on my part, you have my apology.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

surely you prefer to discuss the more convenient propaganda, instead of inconvenient one

I was under the distinct impression that this was a thread about Trump.

Maybe I'll spend some time to reacting to the rest of your message after reading it in full. Have to eat dinner first.

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

I don't understand what you mean about 'high(er) education, which typically happens in one narrow area, a specialized field.'  It's been my experience that most if not all colleges and universities require multiple courses outside one field of interest...

When I studied economics, I do not remember taking courses in chemistry. The reverse is probably true for you as well. But you are right about perception biases, you do not need a degree to suffer from one. It is just that highly educated individuals tend to think they are somehow less prone to it. Ideological blindness doesn't help either.

[Alan Goldhammer]

When I studied economics, I do not remember taking courses in chemistry. The reverse is probably true for you as well. But you are right about perception biases, you do not need a degree to suffer from one. It is just that highly educated individuals tend to think they are somehow less prone to it. Ideological blindness doesn't help either.

WE AGREE!!!  BTW, I was one course short of a double major in political science to go along with my chemistry degree.  My daughter was a music major with a minor in brain and cognitive science, the other was a psychology major with a minor in history so it can be done.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Come on Alan, I would expect you of all on this forum to know ...

Short term increases in stocks should not be used for investment advice nor counted as gains.  We need to wait and see what goes on those racks next and how well they sell.

Yes, I know that!   By the way, the President's counselor, Kellyanne Conway is in hot water as she told everyone watching Fox and Friends this am to go out and buy Ivanka Trump clothes and jewelry.  Apparently she isn't aware that this violates the ethics laws that she is subject to as a government employee.  It keeps getting funnier with each passing day.