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Author Topic: Trump II  (Read 917484 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5140 on: August 17, 2017, 01:08:52 am »

1) I never did and never would condone, endorse, justify or do anything other than express disgust at the execution of innocent officers, civilians or anyone else.  I'm not the one who brought up BLM in the first place, and my relationship with that specific group is far more complex than I could possibly express adequately.

2) Blaming Obama for propegatng racial animus is like blaming the Underground Railroad for poor treatment of slaves because hey, if they didn't try to escape, there wouldn't have been so many beatings, right?  Just stop. 

Hiring Al Sharpton was a dog whistle to blacks and to left liberals.  A "wink-wink-nod-nod" "I'm one of you.  Keep supporting me.  I'm for you." 

During the 2016 election he said to an African-American community to help stop Donald Trump, saying he would consider it a "personal insult" to his legacy if black voters didn't turn out for Hillary Clinton.  Talk about dog whistles.   That's an implicit argument to race and racial politics.  We were suppose to be getting away from that under Obama.  But here he was in his 8th year of president making that kind of argument.    Can you imagine what the media would say if Trump argued that "I would take it as a personal insult if white people didn't support my agenda."?? 

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5141 on: August 17, 2017, 01:16:42 am »

How lucky for him that so many white people deigned to lower themselves to vote for him.

Who gives a fuck about the colour of someone's skin?
Phil, You're Australian.  You live half a world away from America in another hemisphere.  You really have no idea what goes on here and should have the sensibility to mind your own business.  Why don't you address the biased attitude of Australians and your government blocking non-white immigrants to your country instead of spouting off and cursing about race issues in the USA that you know nothing about?   

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5142 on: August 17, 2017, 01:24:20 am »

Phil, You're Australian.  You live half a world away from America in another hemisphere.  You really have no idea what goes on here and should have the sensibility to mind your own business.  Why don't you address the biased attitude of Australians and your government blocking non-white immigrants to your country instead of spouting off and cursing about race issues in the USA that you know nothing about?

Can't make an argument, so you resort to trying to disqualify me from voicing an opinion based on my nationality.  On a Canadian message board.  On a thread started by someone who I bet is quite happy for me to comment.

Australia doesn't block non-white immigrants (however you might define that), but as usual you tell lies and offer no evidence for anything you say.  Stop telling lies, Alan.  Stop hating people because of their race or nationality.  Grow up.

Also, that's not cursing - that's an intensive by usage. 
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Phil Brown

Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5143 on: August 17, 2017, 01:38:42 am »

Can't make an argument, so you resort to trying to disqualify me from voicing an opinion based on my nationality.  On a Canadian message board.  On a thread started by someone who I bet is quite happy for me to comment.

Australia doesn't block non-white immigrants (however you might define that), but as usual you tell lies and offer no evidence for anything you say.  Stop telling lies, Alan.  Stop hating people because of their race or nationality.  Grow up.

Also, that's not cursing - that's an intensive by usage. 

I've made plenty of arguments.  But I wasn't going to make points with someone who lives 12000 miles away and who knows nothing first hand about American race relations.  Did you ever work and socialize with blacks and other non-whites as I have?  Did you ever hire a black employee like i have and work with him and pay him a salary and provide health care?  Did you ever serve in the military and room with another black serviceman like I have.  Have you lived through 72 years witnessing how race relations evolved in the US?  Have you ever voted for American politicians who have taken positions on issues relating to race?  Reading biased newspapers does not make you an expert.  Finally, for you to insult whites who voted for a black man to become president because you think you understand their reasons and curse as if you have any first hand experience is just over the top.

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5144 on: August 17, 2017, 01:53:52 am »

But I wasn't going to make points with someone who lives 12000 miles away

10,000 miles, NY to Sydney (you're being loose with the facts, again).

and who knows nothing first hand about American race relations.

How would you possibly know that?  Making up stories again.

Did you ever work and socialize with blacks and other non-whites as I have?

As you did?  No idea.  But did I in the US and Australia and elsewhere in the world (and do I continue to do so)?  Yes.  Daily.

  Did you ever hire a black employee like i have and work with him and pay him a salary and provide health care?

Healthcare isn't a benefit usually paid here, but, yes I have hired (and fired) "non-white" people.

  Did you ever serve in the military and room with another black serviceman like I have.

I've never served in the military, no.  But I have shared rooms with numerous races/nationalities/etc.

  Have you lived through 72 years witnessing how race relations evolved in the US? 

No, I'm younger than you, but just as neither of us have been to the moon, I know it exists and quite a bit about it.  Enough to voice an opinion.  I also have my own experiences, including in the US, through US friends, colleagues, and so on, plus non-US experiences around the globe.  On a daily basis.

Have you ever voted for American politicians who have taken positions on issues relating to race? 

I've never voted for an American politician.

Reading biased newspapers does not make you an expert.

You have no idea what media I engage with.  I never claimed expertise (and neither should you).

Finally, for you to insult whites who voted for a black man to become president

I did no such thing.  I mocked you for characterising them as having "gone out of their way" as if they deigned to give their white-blessing.  As if they weren't going to vote anyway (most of them) and for a Democrat.  I called out the absurdity of caring about the colour of someone's skin as a valid basis upon which to decide whether they should represent you.

because you think you understand their reasons

I know first hand a few of them, but so what?  You invented a premise that I never held or espoused.  In other words, you told lies again.

and curse as if you have any first hand experience is just over the top.

But I do have first hand experience, but so what?  Doesn't change my comment that you made a stupid remark about "going out of their way" and that I find the entire notion of caring about the colour of someone's skin to be utterly absurd and it drew an intense reaction (not cursing - learn the difference).

And, finally, you know virtually nothing about me.  You don't know my race or ethnicity or cultural or genetic background, you don't know my experiences.  So who are you to dismiss my opinion based on my nationality?  I ended more than my fair share of fights as a youth when people thought that being racists was cool.

You remain very, very small, Alan.
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Phil Brown

Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5145 on: August 17, 2017, 02:32:06 am »

On a thread started by someone who I bet is quite happy for me to comment.

I am quite happy to have you comment...

And since I've been to Australia (not sure Alan has) I do know that Australia has had a long history of racial problems that have had to be dealt with so I'm pretty sure you have perfectly valid and informational opinions.
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Schewe

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5146 on: August 17, 2017, 02:51:57 am »

Since we're talking about people from Australia having thoughts on the US political situation, I thought it would be fun to see what's hitting the Australia news.

Steven Bannon: Trump ‘puppet master’ believes America must be reborn through fire



Quote
HE’s Trump’s top adviser. He believes prophecy destines America to a ‘trial by fire’. But now a blow-torch is being applied to alt-right banner man Steve Bannon’s extreme beliefs.

--snip--

Bannon only recently emerged triumphant from an internal White House power struggle with former Chief of Staff Reince Priebus. But new Chief of Staff, retired General Kelly, laid down the law with Trump before accepting the job that he had final say on who said what, and when.

Little surprise, then, that Bannon’s future appears to have taken an abrupt about-face.

White House National Security Advisor Lt General H.R. McMaster has refused to say he can work with his security council colleague. Scaramucci — after doing him such a favour with Preibus — has lashed him publicly as a white nationalist.

All the while, replacement White House Chief of Staff General John F. Kelly has remained publicly silent on Bannon.

Bannon insists his job is safe. But White House leaks suggest a very different scene behind closed doors. These mutterings suggest Kelly will not tolerate Bannon’s machinations, manipulative leaks and direct disobedience.

Something has changed.

Bannon, once a fixture in every Oval Office gathering, has not been seen in recent days. Though he has apparently kept the President’s ear — reportedly advising him on how to respond to the neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, and North Korea.

But his advice — not to antagonise his far-right power base, and to ram a hard-line home on Kim Jong-un — appears to have backfired.

In a big way.

Trump hasn’t had an easy relationship with Bannon. He resented the way his 2016 victory was attributed to his campaign adviser. He also bristles at suggestions Bannon is his puppet-master.

Suddenly, Trump has refused to rule out the disruptive proponent of the far right’s agenda will remain in the White House beyond the week.

“We’ll see what happens with Mr Bannon,” Trump said.

But firing Bannon won't fix the self inflicted wounds Trump caused himself...truth be told, after hearing a days worth of news (CNN and FOX) I just see how Trump can fix this...I don't think he can unring this bell.

We'll see...never a dull moment on Trump's Presidential Reality Show!
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Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5147 on: August 17, 2017, 03:14:52 am »

I am quite happy to have you comment...

And since I've been to Australia (not sure Alan has) I do know that Australia has had a long history of racial problems that have had to be dealt with so I'm pretty sure you have perfectly valid and informational opinions.

Unfortunately, we continue to have racial issues - we are currently debating the need for constitutional change and recognition for first peoples of Australia (who have been here for at least 50,000 years - an increase of around 10,000 years over previous estimates - based on some recent finds).  I am no less appalled by my fellow countrymen who make absurd, racially charged or ignorant comments than those from anywhere else.
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Phil Brown

Farmer

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5148 on: August 17, 2017, 03:17:06 am »

Since we're talking about people from Australia having thoughts on the US political situation, I thought it would be fun to see what's hitting the Australia news.

And before someone scream bias, note that Newscorp is definitely a right-leaning organisation (Murdoch).
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Phil Brown

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5149 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:34 am »

And some follow-up on the militia discussion earlier in this thread: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/17/white-supremacists-militias-private-police-215498.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5150 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:59 am »

The President says what half of the county thinks.

Are there any polls to back up that statement?

Just voting for one of a limited number of candidates doesn't mean that everything that candidate stands for is accepted.

Cheers,
Bart
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5151 on: August 17, 2017, 08:12:41 am »

The irony of this article appeals to me: http://www.politico.com/story/2017/08/17/trump-lindsey-graham-criticism-charlottesville-241725?lo=ap_b1.

Trump is basically accusing that Senator of shooting his mouth off. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I don't think the writer intended the piece to be funny but I laughed.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5152 on: August 17, 2017, 08:34:48 am »

... I am no less appalled by my fellow countrymen who make absurd, racially charged or ignorant comments than those from anywhere else.

Then you shouldn't have implied  as you did earlier that white people who voted for Obama are closet racists. You could have just as easily callrd them enlightened and helped racial divisions.

By the way, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 
Australian senator wears a burqa in Parliament.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-australia-burqa-20170817-story.html

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5153 on: August 17, 2017, 09:36:58 am »

By the way, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
 
Australian senator wears a burqa in Parliament.
http://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-australia-burqa-20170817-story.html

Not sure what your point is.

Do you think it's okay, e.g. for security reasons, that people hide their identity when entering a Parliament, a bank, public transportation, etc.? Or are you of the mistaken impression that e.g. a  burka or niqab is a religious (Islamic) requirement? Or do you reject such subjects being discussed by official representatives of the people?

Or is it that you see no limits to a freedom of expression, regardless of how the general public or law feel about that, or don't care if the larger public's safety is involved? Or is it a vote for positive discrimination of a fringe faction in a larger religious group, encouraging others to follow suit?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. maybe helpful to see what was actually being discussed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDf-5ygFXGk
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 09:51:45 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5154 on: August 17, 2017, 10:00:50 am »

Trump is shooting himself in the foot.

Trump is sabotaging himself by attacking the media after Charlottesville


President Trump first asked reporters to define the "alt-right," before saying members of the "alt-left" were also to blame for violence in Charlottesville, while taking questions from reporters on Aug. 15 at Trump Tower in New York.

The worry is that Trump's freelancing self-destructive fashion will leave our country without a functioning leader.

Trump spoke his objection about Nazis and KKK.  But he also blamed violence on both sides as being unacceptable.  He stated that both sides have a right to free speech.  (Note that the liberal ACLU American Civil Liberty Union helped the "right" secure permits for their march, something the alt-left didn't do)   A president, any president, should support free speech.  This is America.  The left is always trying to shut down the speech of anyone they disagree with.  They're the un-Americans. I don't support KKK or Nazis but support their right to speak and make asses out of themselves.  Obama attacked white cops who were later exonerated but gave license to nut job blacks in the meanwhile to assassinate other white cops.  He should have told everyone to cool it and let the legal process do its work instead of prematurely taking sides before all the facts were in.  Of course he was playing racial politics all along.   Of course, the same press ignored what Obama did.

Free speech is a blessing that we should encourage regardless of the vile and prejudicial beliefs some people have.  It's Constitutionally protected. It acts as a safety valve for people to blow off steam.  People will resort to violence if you shut them down and not let them be heard.  Frankly, this is what the left wants.  To create racial and social violence in the hope of enacting major social change in America.  All we're going to get, I'm afraid, is another civil war.    And the biased media, so hateful of Trump, they're playing along.  In their attempt to destroy him they're pouring gasoline on these situations and will be largely to blame if a conflagration occurs.

jeremyrh

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5155 on: August 17, 2017, 10:01:08 am »

Their posture looks defensive, not offensive, to me. 

What does it take to turn one into the other?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5156 on: August 17, 2017, 10:06:46 am »

And then, as if to pound another nail into the coffin of dignity, Trump took the opportunity, near the end of a press conference about a public tragedy, to shill his Virginia winery, which may or not be stilled owned by him, or his son, or somebody.  And he lied then too, wildly exaggerating its size. He is such a flagrant embarrassment.

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Otto Phocus

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5157 on: August 17, 2017, 10:20:26 am »

And then, as if to pound another nail into the coffin of dignity, Trump took the opportunity, near the end of a press conference about a public tragedy, to shill his Virginia winery, which may or not be stilled owned by him, or his son, or somebody.  And he lied then too, wildly exaggerating its size. He is such a flagrant embarrassment.

"Sorry to hear about that incident and to the Heyer family, really sorry about your tragic loss, but hey, I care about Charlottesville.  Did you know that I have the yugest winery there.  It's fantastic.  It's bigger than any other winery.  But hey, enough about me, let's talk about you.  What did you think of my yuge inauguration crowds?"

(facepalm)

The man is like a vacation from school -- no class.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5158 on: August 17, 2017, 10:27:42 am »

Not sure what your point is.

Do you think it's okay, e.g. for security reasons, that people hide their identity when entering a Parliament, a bank, public transportation, etc.? Or are you of the mistaken impression that e.g. a  burka or niqab is a religious (Islamic) requirement? Or do you reject such subjects being discussed by official representatives of the people?

Or is it that you see no limits to a freedom of expression, regardless of how the general public or law feel about that, or don't care if the larger public's safety is involved? Or is it a vote for positive discrimination of a fringe faction in a larger religious group, encouraging others to follow suit?

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. maybe helpful to see what was actually being discussed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDf-5ygFXGk

The article had nothing to do with wearing burqas in the Australian parliament or hiding identity.  The woman wearing is an Australian senator trying to get legislation passed to prevent them from being worn in public.  In America, Muslims can wear burqas in public.  I see it all the time and don't feel threatened.    It's part of their faith, culture and is considered free speech as well.  It is protected by our Constitution.  What's next?  Bar Jews from wearing yarmulkes (head coverings), blacks from having dreadlocks, Catholics from displaying crosses and rosary beads, Sikhs from wearing their turbans? 

What are you afraid of?  It seems you're the one who's prejudiced against others who don't look, think and act like you.  Seems to be a common problem in Europe as it is in Australia. 

Peter McLennan

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Re: Trump II
« Reply #5159 on: August 17, 2017, 10:28:28 am »

Phil, You're Australian.  You live half a world away from America in another hemisphere.  You really have no idea what goes on here

I've got a word for you, Alan.  Are you ready?

"telecommunications"

Look it up.
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