Trump II

[Alan Klein]

Instead of tweets, here is a list of things Trump has done - both "positive" and "negative" depending on your viewpoint.  How did these things ever get done between his tweets? 
http://www.conservapedia.com/Donald_Trump_achievements

[pegelli]

Instead of tweets, here is a list of things Trump has done - both "positive" and "negative" depending on your viewpoint.  How did these things ever get done between his tweets? 
http://www.conservapedia.com/Donald_Trump_achievements

The intro is mostly hot air, only thing missing is the "biggest crowd at the inauguration statement" but that would have really make it lose all credibility.

Most of the achievements are (in my eyes) either bad, insignificant or extensions of what was done before. Also signing work done by others takes very little time and still gives him plenty time for tweets and golf (and watching morning talk shows).

I found this the most funny "achievement" mentioned:

Trump's victory over political correctness

Trump has strongly and successfully challenged political correctness, particularly during his 2016 presidential campaign. He insisted on using the term "anchor baby" despite a reporter saying the term was offensive.[520] He uses the term "Islamic terrorism". He says he will use the words "Merry Christmas".

In June 2017, after an Islamic terrorist attack in the United Kingdom, President Trump used his social media platform to call for the end of political correctness.

So why does he get so mad and start lying more when others question his integrity by for instance calling him out on hanging fake Time covers at his golf resorts. So I guess in his mind the only one who can abandon political correctness is himself. Well, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

[pegelli]

You don't see it on cable or discuss it here in the forum.  I doubt if you saw more than a few seconds, if that, on broadcast TV news.  Instead of us all focusing on what's really important, we get side tracked with nonsense like tweets because it sells better.  It's all about looking for something to knock the president instead of paying attention to what he's doing that will really effect us.

It got covered in a lot of media, even the libertarian press you so despise, so you're playing "victim" again without due cause.

And to the real issue at stake how to "solve" North Korea, the conservatives are speaking out of both sides of their mouth: On the one hand they don't want to be the policeman of the world but that also means you have to work with your allies in the region and not go solo, which is what Trump is now implying to do. You can't do both.

[Alan Klein]

It got covered in a lot of media, even the libertarian press you so despise, so you're playing "victim" again without due cause.

And to the real issue at stake how to "solve" North Korea, the conservatives are speaking out of both sides of their mouth: On the one hand they don't want to be the policeman of the world but that also means you have to work with your allies in the region and not go solo, which is what Trump is now implying to do. You can't do both.

This is great.  You're actually discussing war and peace,  things that are important. Me?, I'm ambivalent.  I don't want to see another war.  But I am concerned with a nuclear armed North Korea.  What do others think how this situation should be handled??

[Robert Roaldi]

Interview excerpt, short take on Trump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdPTSqltiVk.

[Robert Roaldi]

I agree.  Maybe you should be more civil too instead of using terms like this when you talk about the President: #BigOrangeButthead

Seriously, how you can talk about civility when the guy engages in nonsense like this: http://globalnews.ca/news/3569658/ny-post-trump-mika-brzezinski/.

[Alan Klein]

Seriously, how you can talk about civility when the guy engages in nonsense like this: http://globalnews.ca/news/3569658/ny-post-trump-mika-brzezinski/.

So instead of discussing the important issues of the day like North Korea that Trump also talks about and is implementing policy, you'd rather get into the gutter and slash away?  You seem more interested in tweets regarding Mika's face lifts than war and peace.  Doesn't that say something about you?

[Robert Roaldi]

So instead of discussing the important issues of the day like North Korea that Trump also talks about and is implementing policy, you'd rather get into the gutter and slash away?  You seem more interested in tweets regarding Mika's face lifts than war and peace.  Doesn't that say something about you?

You brought up civility.

You keep changing the subject.

What happened in North Korea or China overnight to cause this sudden overriding concern? But if you think that North Korea is a suddenly an existential threat, that's your prerogative.

[pegelli]

This is great.  You're actually discussing war and peace,  things that are important. Me?, I'm ambivalent.  I don't want to see another war.  But I am concerned with a nuclear armed North Korea.  What do others think how this situation should be handled??

I also don't want to see another war and I'm also worried about a nuclear armed North Korea. However I'm also worried about your president dropping a few stray bombs without real purpose and only making matters worse. The US has a serious history of screwing up by simply not understanding that some people think differently then they do. Remember Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan? Your current commander in chief is a bigger nutcase than any of his predecessors making those errors of judgement so I'm actually most worried about him taking some stupid decisions. I think the solution is putting much more real diplomatic pressure on China to solve it and give them both time, a way to save face (very important in Asia to get anything usefully done) as well as something in return (and I don't mean another bunch of bullying tweets) and secondly spend some time understanding Asian culture as well as why you need to be patient with such a process. 

[Alan Klein]

You brought up civility.

You keep changing the subject.

What happened in North Korea or China overnight to cause this sudden overriding concern? But if you think that North Korea is a suddenly an existential threat, that's your prerogative.

Bob (sorry),  We've all spent 200+ pages attacking and defending Trump rather than discussing his policies that really will effect us all. Maybe that's his plan with the tweets.  Distract us all while he goes about changing the world while we're asleep.

From the article I linked earlier:

"...The president reaffirmed the American security alliance with South Korea against the threat of a nuclear-armed North Korea. But he showed little patience for Mr. Moon’s hope for engagement with the North — something analysts said could be a future source of friction between the leaders.

Mr. Trump’s decision on Thursday to impose sanctions on Chinese entities that do business with North Korea was interpreted by some as a shot across the bow not only to Beijing, but also to Mr. Moon, since it emphasizes pressure over diplomacy. And the president’s approval of a $1.4 billion weapons sale to Taiwan provoked a sulfurous reaction from the Chinese government.
Taken together, the measures signal that Mr. Trump has moved into an aggressive, unpredictable phase of his strategy for dealing with one of the world’s tensest regions. On trade, at least, the United States will now be at odds with its two key partners in confronting the rogue government in North Korea..."

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/30/world/asia/trump-south-korea-china.html?_r=0

[James Clark]

Bob (sorry),  We've all spent 200+ pages attacking and defending Trump rather than discussing his policies that really will effect us all. Maybe that's his plan with the tweets.  Distract us all while he goes about changing the world while we're asleep.

The "Trump is secretly a soopergenius that acts like a deranged child on purpose to throw everyone off balance, but in reality is a coldly calculated, hyper competent manipulator of the media and the world around him just waiting for us all to wake up one day and see the Garden of Eden he's created while we slept" is ridiculous.

That said, I can concede that his change tone toward NK may be having, or could have, a positive effect given enough time and enough cooperation from China - certainly the status quo hasn't really solved the problem.   We shall see.  It could also blow up (literally) in his (and our) face.

[James Clark]

What disaster? Stock market is up, illegal border crossings are 40% down, (some) Muslims are banned, Supreme Court judge appointed, communism advance (a.k.a. Dems) slowed down...so, what disaster?

Market was fine, border crossings were already trending down, racist paranoia isn't a positive, political hypocrisy shouldn't be rewarded, and authoritarianism is no substitute.

What else you got?

[Alan Klein]

I also don't want to see another war and I'm also worried about a nuclear armed North Korea. However I'm also worried about your president dropping a few stray bombs without real purpose and only making matters worse. The US has a serious history of screwing up by simply not understanding that some people think differently then they do. Remember Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan? Your current commander in chief is a bigger nutcase than any of his predecessors making those errors of judgement so I'm actually most worried about him taking some stupid decisions. I think the solution is putting much more real diplomatic pressure on China to solve it and give them both time, a way to save face (very important in Asia to get anything usefully done) as well as something in return (and I don't mean another bunch of bullying tweets) and secondly spend some time understanding Asian culture as well as why you need to be patient with such a process. 

Pieter:  Thoughtful comments.  Yes, we often jump the gun militarily.  But Trump didn't get us into Vietnam or Iraq.  I believe he was against Bush in Iraq.   I disagree though about Afghanistan.  Al Khaida launched their attack on 9-11 from there.  That's where Bin Laden trained his forces.  So we had to go into Afghanistan to eliminate Al Khaida  there.  The problem is trying to figure how to get out of there without allowing the Taliban to re-group and the place again becoming another breeding ground for terrorists.  Maybe if the Taliban takes over again, we should just make a deal with them to be friends if they keep terrorists out.  After what happened to them before, they may like that.  Then we could leave Afghanistan. 

By the way, calling Trump a nutcase doesn't lend itself to the conversation.  He's a clever guy who knows how to use pressure and seeming irrationality and confusion to get his way.  His toughness to date such as in Syria air field, MOAB, weapons to Taiwan, etc. have changed our adversaries view of America from one of weakness and fecklessness under Obama to one where they have to tread carefully.  That's good for our side.  And I consider you on our side.  Ditto with Russia, although you wouldn't believe that reading the press. 

I think China said a lot of nice things to him in Mar-a-lago to put us off.  Trump went along hoping.  But it didn't take him long to figure out they aren't going to help unless we really pressure them. Talk is cheap.   The Chinese care most about money and trade.  Anything that threatens those things concerns them because it will lead to unrest in China and they want to maintain power.  The North Koreans made a deal with us years ago to not produce nuclear weapons.  They lied.  The only thing that effects them is pressure.  I don't see Trump going to war.  Frankly, that's something Congress should decide.  But I see him using maximum pressure everything short of war against China and North Korea.  He's not afraid to use America's economic and military power to get his way.  He really knows how to leverage strength.  Maybe that's what his handshakes are all about.  To remind people he has the strength of America behind him. 

[Alan Klein]

...That said, I can concede that his change tone toward NK may be having, or could have, a positive effect given enough time and enough cooperation from China - certainly the status quo hasn't really solved the problem.   We shall see.  It could also blow up (literally) in his (and our) face.

You're right it's all dangerous.  But it's dangerous regardless of what any president could do considering the circumstances.  Would the situation be different for a President Clinton or Sanders?   What would you do if you were president?

[pegelli]

Pieter:  Thoughtful comments.  Yes, we often jump the gun militarily.  But Trump didn't get us into Vietnam or Iraq.  I believe he was against Bush in Iraq.   I disagree though about Afghanistan.  Al Khaida launched their attack on 9-11 from there.  That's where Bin Laden trained his forces.  So we had to go into Afghanistan to eliminate Al Khaida  there.  The problem is trying to figure how to get out of there without allowing the Taliban to re-group and the place again becoming another breeding ground for terrorists.  Maybe if the Taliban takes over again, we should just make a deal with them to be friends if they keep terrorists out.  After what happened to them before, they may like that.  Then we could leave Afghanistan. 

By the way, calling Trump a nutcase doesn't lend itself to the conversation.  He's a clever guy who knows how to use pressure and seeming irrationality and confusion to get his way.  His toughness to date such as in Syria air field, MOAB, weapons to Taiwan, etc. have changed our adversaries view of America from one of weakness and fecklessness under Obama to one where they have to tread carefully.  That's good for our side.  And I consider you on our side.  Ditto with Russia, although you wouldn't believe that reading the press. 

I think China said a lot of nice things to him in Mar-a-lago to put us off.  Trump went along hoping.  But it didn't take him long to figure out they aren't going to help unless we really pressure them. Talk is cheap.   The Chinese care most about money and trade.  Anything that threatens those things concerns them because it will lead to unrest in China and they want to maintain power.  The North Koreans made a deal with us years ago to not produce nuclear weapons.  They lied.  The only thing that effects them is pressure.  I don't see Trump going to war.  Frankly, that's something Congress should decide.  But I see him using maximum pressure everything short of war against China and North Korea.  He's not afraid to use America's economic and military power to get his way.  He really knows how to leverage strength.  Maybe that's what his handshakes are all about.  To remind people he has the strength of America behind him.

Alan, I'm not talking about the Afganistan you mentioned. I'm talking about the Afganistan where Bin Laden was the US ally and you armed and trained him. But after he had served his purpose the US dropped him like a stone and he turned. When you fight in those regions you need to understand that alliances take longer then just a war or a presidential term, they take generations and get it wrong you pay the price and in the end everybody will be against you (which is basically what's happening at the moment).

On your second point I disagree Trump is a clever guy. If he can't keep a level head when dealing with two reporters who are calling him out on fraud and straight lies (and rightfully so) how should we have confidence he will be any smarter dealing with real world problems. He might be a shrewd businessman but as a commander in chief he's way out of his league and both his temperament and ego are getting in the way of doing the right thing. He's only looking for quick/small wins and totally forgetting the longer term goals and the strategy needed to achieve them.

I hope Congress will stop him before he does anything stupid, but I'm not sure at all.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I'm not talking about the Afganistan you mentioned. I'm talking about the Afganistan where Bin Laden was the US ally and you armed and trained him. But after he had served his purpose the US dropped him like a stone and he turned. When you fight in those regions you need to understand that alliances take longer then just a war or a presidential term, they take generations and get it wrong you pay the price and in the end everybody will be against you (which is basically what's happening at the moment).

On your second point I disagree Trump is a clever guy. If he can't keep a level head when dealing with two reporters who are calling him out on fraud and straight lies (and rightfully so) how should we have confidence he will be any smarter dealing with real world problems. He might be a shrewd businessman but as a commander in chief he's way out of his league and both his temperament and ego are getting in the way of doing the right thing. He's only looking for quick/small wins and totally forgetting the longer term goals and the strategy needed to achieve them.

I hope Congress will stop him before he does anything stupid, but I'm not sure at all.

Bin Laden was not an ally.     We supported the Taliban and other Afghanistan tribes against Russia in their war in Afghanistan.  Bin Laden supported the Taliban and therefore got favor from them in setting up training and military camps.  Bin Laden was always against the west, Jews, Israel and all those who oppose Arabs and Islam which is everyone who is not Muslim.  He was also against the Saudi king.  He never "turned".

But Trump is dealing with real-world problems.  He's gotten back the respect for America from adversaries that Obama lost.  Our friends are upset because it's not business as usual with America.  We've become a tough friend, a first among equals,  who expects to treated with deference.  We won't be rolled.  Of course, other nations don't like that.  It's going to cost them money.  They're going to lose influence.  Nobody wants to be second fiddle.  But Trump doesn't care because he's president of America unlike Obama who wanted to be liked and president of the world. 

[pegelli]

Bin Laden was not an ally.     We supported the Taliban and other Afghanistan tribes against Russia in their war in Afghanistan.  Bin Laden supported the Taliban and therefore got favor from them in setting up training and military camps.  Bin Laden was always against the west, Jews, Israel and all those who oppose Arabs and Islam which is everyone who is not Muslim.  He was also against the Saudi king.  He never "turned".

But Trump is dealing with real-world problems.  He's gotten back the respect for America from adversaries that Obama lost.  Our friends are upset because it's not business as usual with America.  We've become a tough friend, a first among equals,  who expects to treated with deference.  We won't be rolled.  Of course, other nations don't like that.  It's going to cost them money.  They're going to lose influence.  Nobody wants to be second fiddle.  But Trump doesn't care because he's president of America unlike Obama who wanted to be liked and president of the world.

Bin Laden got money from the US (via ISI/Pakistan) in his fight against Russia, that's what I call an ally. He might not like the country he got it from but he still took and used it.

On your second paragraph I wholeheartedly disagree. Trump is not getting respect from around the world, he's too irrational and unpredictable to get (and deserve) that. Yes people might be more careful not to burn too many bridges for once he's gone and keep a low profile for now but whenever possible they will just ignore him and move on with their business. To be first among equals he really needs to do a whole lot better. The current stream of hot air is mainly counterproductive, he thinks it makes him (and the US) look good but that's just an illusion.

[James Clark]

You're right it's all dangerous.  But it's dangerous regardless of what any president could do considering the circumstances.  Would the situation be different for a President Clinton or Sanders?   What would you do if you were president?

A fair question.  I'd almost certainly be a one-term president because I'm not ideological enough to shore up my base - I'm a fairly extreme pragmatist at heart. Let's start with positions that are more "conservative" in nature

I'd likely take a position similar to the just-stated approach to China and North Korea that was announced the other day.

I believe that, as a practical matter, entitlements should be means tested.

I believe that our corporate tax approach needs to be revisited (even though the language the current R leaders are using to make that point is pretty weaselly)

I think that the fact that some 50(ish)% of people eventually net out to close to a zero effective tax rate is bad, and to levy even more asymmetric taxes on the wealthy isn't the correct solution to federal revenue issues.

Most importantly, I'm a true civil libertarian.  I support a strong defense of *all* of our elucidated and implied rights, including gun ownership, freedom from unreasonable search and seizure, and freedom of assembly and travel.

On the other hand, I think Obama was on the right track with his treatment of non-violent offenders.  Sessions is screwing the pooch big time on this.

I strongly disagree with the rollback on environmental regulations.  Robust energy company revenues, despite the decline in oil prices, indicates that regulations aren't harming our core industries.

I think we would save more American lives by investments in science and research than an increase in military spending.

I don't really give a damn if someone thinks we are "strong" so long as they think we are competent.  The fact that the US is "strong" is pretty obvious, and we don't need to shove it in everyone's face 24/7.

Finally, the idea that acting the way we are now lessens everyone else's standing in the world because we are suddenly "scarier" is, IMHO, 100% flat dead wrong.

[Alan Klein]

I don't really give a damn if someone thinks we are "strong" so long as they think we are competent.  The fact that the US is "strong" is pretty obvious, and we don't need to shove it in everyone's face 24/7...

Power isn't obvious if you don't use it.  In spite of American power, Obama let Russia take the Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, etc. and China to build up those islands into militarized bases.  Trump's air base strike in Syria and  MOAB among other things have again created caution in our adversaries.  His recent "red line" threat to Assad is very believable because of it.  Do you doubt he will bomb Syrian bases again if Assad uses chemical weapons on his people?   Power has value only if people think you're willing to use it.  The idea that foreign leaders don't respect him is nonsense.  He is the President and commands America's economic and military power for the next four years.  Their personal views of him as a person are beside the point.   

But I agree a lot with most of your other ideas.  I think Trump believes in many of them too and is trying to implement them. 

[Schewe]

The idea that foreign leaders don't respect him is nonsense.

Maybe you should expand your reading a bit...according to Pew Research Center Trump's not doing so hot.

U.S. Image Suffers as Publics Around World Question Trump’s Leadership

America still wins praise for its people, culture and civil liberties

Although he has only been in office a few months, Donald Trump’s presidency has had a major impact on how the world sees the United States. Trump and many of his key policies are broadly unpopular around the globe, and ratings for the U.S. have declined steeply in many nations. According to a new Pew Research Center survey spanning 37 nations, a median of just 22% has confidence in Trump to do the right thing when it comes to international affairs. This stands in contrast to the final years of Barack Obama’s presidency, when a median of 64% expressed confidence in Trump’s predecessor to direct America’s role in the world.

And this is likely to irritate the Trumpster....he hates when Obama outdoes him!



Anybody who thinks Trump is respected by other leaders in the world is not really dealing with reality. The current "leader of the free world" mantle has, I think, been passed to Merkel.



But here's some news that might brighten Trump's day...



But when it comes to Trump character, well...



Any objective evaluation of America's position, status and leadership in the world shows we have taken a nose dive...not a good thing if something bad happens and we need the help of our allies. America First is starting to sound more like America Worst.

And this doesn't take into effect the juvenile behavior and Trump's tendency to throw his friends and allies under the bus if it suits him. Ask Paul Ryan how it feels under the bus of his "mean" healthcare bill. He invited all the GOP Senators to the WH to try to negotiate a GOP Senate healthcare bill but was so uninformed about the specifics of the bill be didn't even realize that the tax breaks for the wealthy were tucked into the healthcare bill. He thought is was part of the separate tax bill. Ooooh...the Senators were so impressed.

Naw, sorry, Trump's presidency is an unmitigated disaster...and heck, I didn't even mention Trump's tweets (didn't need to–it's all over the Fake News).