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Author Topic: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong  (Read 11794 times)

Rob C

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2016, 09:55:20 am »

Patricia, you're playing with my mind again. The contents of a couple of short sentences usually register with me quite clearly, and I retain their flow for the period; however, after that last pair of posts, I am no longer sure if you are saying yea or nay. I can, of course, forgive you for floating up there awhile, but you have to take congisance of the lesser mortals beneath with only a little three-minute mind with which to play virtual ping-pong.

I sort of understand you to be saying - if obliquely - that photography does have its limits beyond which it ceases to be photography and turns into something quite else (my laboured point made earlier); however, you may not be saying any of this at all. I fully appreciate the spiritual suspension which, of course, occurs not once, but several times with the same image at the different stages of making it visible. Also, and in contrast, I don't share the idea that bad light needs be bad light; for me, that it made me want to go 'click' means, in my odd mind, that it is actually good light, because it motivated.

The problem here is not illumination but subject.

What do I mean? I mean that there are those pictures where subject is of paramount importance, and any departure from your 'cage' of received understanding will jarr, badly. And for good reason, as this thread demonstrates. I think. On the other hand, there are subjects which I find that I am drawn into very deeply, that have no chains of conventional preconception around their ankles, and thus I feel free to do as I like with them. In both cases I do not dispute that the creator can do whatever the hell he wants to do;  just suggest that some things will be generally appreciated and others not.

There's also the fact that some things are just silly.

Rob

David Eckels

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2016, 02:25:52 pm »

David, my friend, obfuscate it all you want with a bunch of words, but it remains quite simple: "hard to define, but when you see it, you know it."  :)
Don't bring Uelsmann to your defense. He had a concept behind his whimsical "analog contraptions." Concept is what differentiates crap from art. Moving a few sliders left and right, or clicking on a few presets or "art filters" is not a concept and not art.
I think I am starting to get it. I am not trying to obfuscate, but can certainly understand the impatience with my grasping at understanding and/or definition. I can let that be and appreciate your "nutshell" conclusion. Your Uelsmann comment also helps because I can relate to his concept and presentation. Very helpful comments and I am once again in your debt (as well as all the rest that have had the patience to discuss!)
The problem here is not illumination but subject.
Rob, this fits very well (to my way of thinking) with Slobodan's comment about "concept." I think I also get Patricia's view, but my "take home" is that wandering without a concept of where one is going may not be appreciated, however, "playing" to figure out where one is headed may be acceptable and lead to some place interesting in a creative sense. A valuable lesson for me; thanks!

PS Nobody ever accused me of being terse! ;)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2016, 02:44:00 pm by David Eckels »
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Peterretep

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2016, 10:37:53 pm »

Thanks for the comments, an interesting mix with a good range of feelings expressed.

Patricia, yes the day was totally flat, in fact it was raining when photographing this. Though there was such flatness of light there was also good saturation of color. The light rain washed away the collected dust from far too many rain free days. Along the Little Pigeon River into which the Middle Prong flows, due to the drought color other than brown was much harder to find than in most years. Many trees had just wilted instead of turning colors.

I never claimed to be making art. Nor did I just use filters and push sliders around to create this image, but that had already been stated. There were several techniques employed in the making of this including the oil filter and B&W luminosity layers among other techniques selectively applied to the original version over the course of about three hours. For the most part for me this was a fun departure, yes, a wandering with an initial bit of a sarcastic motivation aimed at and in union with the many "it looks just like a painting" images we often see in social media. I knew the general direction I wanted to take it but really didn't know where it would end. I wanted it to be something like all those too often seen baked over saturated images that ARE a result of just pushing sliders or effects, but better. Art? I don't have a need for that recognition to this image or any of the hundreds or thousands I've made in my life that range from the serious to the Disney like this one. They are all photographic images to a degree more or less, I like to lighten it up every so often to get away from the serious work that is my mainstay. 

And in response to whether an image will be appreciated or not, I say it shouldn't matter for if it did, that would just be a need to shore up of one's lack of confidence in their own abilities. Create for yourself. With that said, I'm happy when an image can generate sales which this one has in it's short little itsy bitsy life.  :)
When an image stirs things up it becomes more from the reactions and expressing of ideas it generates. I'm good with that.

Zorki5

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2016, 09:36:32 am »

If anything, I prefer the first image to the second -- even though it's no longer a photograph :) , it has an abstract quality to it. Very nice graphic work.

As to the second... Well, I'm not a fan of over-saturation/HDR/etc.; whatever changes the image beyond certain point when I can no longer look at it and pretend I'm "there", and experience the moment. The same applies to low shutter speeds when photographing water -- for me, it always ruins the shot. Does one ever see the water flowing like that? Nope. And yet pro photogs insist on photographing it like that... They would (rightfully) blast you for over-saturating your image, yet completely unnatural water is somehow OK. Why, because it's "nice"? But so are over-saturated colors.

The first image does not even "pretend" that it's "real", it's just something very nice. And it somehow conveys the beauty of the place even better. So it wins IMO.

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GrahamBy

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2016, 02:13:59 pm »

The same applies to low shutter speeds when photographing water -- for me, it always ruins the shot. Does one ever see the water flowing like that? Nope. And yet pro photogs insist on photographing it like that... They would (rightfully) blast you for over-saturating your image, yet completely unnatural water is somehow OK. Why, because it's "nice"? But so are over-saturated colors. wins IMO.

Fashion :) Glad to hear I'm not all alone.

For the photo in this thread... no point me commenting, since it's not something I'd try to do.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2016, 05:25:18 pm »

Art and photographic art imho, is to compose and then create a representation of reality through another medium and not just a replication of that reality. If you want to see a scene with trees that look absolutely real, then take an empty picture frame and stand in the middle of a forest, you will be amazed how boring it probably looks. For me art is not about showing reality, we don't really need that do we, as we see it all day every day, art it is about the representation of reality and where the medium used forms a major element of that representation.

This is why (I believe) art installations such as Tracy Emin's Bed can never be art, because it is not representative of a thing, it is the thing. Similarly dumping a pile of bricks out of a skip onto a car park and calling it art as someone once did, is not art either, as it represents nothing different than what it is, a pile of bricks.

When we try to create art through photography, or at least the intention of art, to help us we often try to capture something that is unique or at least not commonly seen, or something commonly seen but shown in a new and unique way. We also try to photograph reality when it looks at its most unreality like, or the chaos of nature looks to be ordered in such a way that defies the normal randomness of nature and once again looks unreal. I mean why are dawn and sunsets so popular to photographers? because the world does not usually look like that and so for the person viewing your work, who is not a photographer, or is not prepared to get up in the middle of the night and stand in the freezing cold just to witness and photograph such a scene, to their eyes your dawn shot over the local gas works is unique, although it is debatable if can still be described as art, as that is a matter for you.

I also believe that photographic art should have more than a passing resemblance to a painting, I don't mean the image should look as though it was painted with a brush or drawn with a pencil, but it should have a resemblance to something that given the skills, we would like to be able to draw or paint, in other words it should look created and how you have designed it to be, rather than how it appears to most people.

Someone once complained when visiting Yosemite Valley after buying one of Ansel's books, "It doesn't look anything like your photographs", well the reason I believe that is the case, is because Ansel photographed with filters that changed the light in such a way that people hadn't seen before and also at a time of day or year, that allowed him to capture a scene in a way that he would have like to paint the scene if he had the skill to do so.

But what about Street photography I hear you ask that's reality isn't it? Well let's take Cartier-Bresson as an example, he did use reality as his subject as we all do, but he waited until all the elements within the scene could be placed or had moved into a place, where the image then had a painterly composed look to it, in other words he didn't just replicate reality, he waited until reality looked like a painting.

What about studio work? Again we compose and photograph just like a painter would draw or paint, only instead of paint we use modelling lighting tricks such as the Rembrandt technique, to allow us to capture the reality of people and models or products etc, in such a way that transforms that mundane reality into a glowing perfectly sculptured super-reality

I think this is one of the reasons why plug-ins applied to images doesn't work very often, because to overlay a faux painterly look onto a composition that wasn't taken with a painterly composition in mind, just looks like a photograph with a plug-in applied to it.

Although I do quite like the ideas and composition behind the OP's image, I don't like the obvious effects I am afraid, but perhaps applied a little more subtly and it could work.

Dave
« Last Edit: November 08, 2016, 05:29:24 pm by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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Rob C

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2016, 05:53:02 pm »

"But what about Street photography I hear you ask that's reality isn't it? Well let's take Cartier-Bresson as an example, he did use reality as his subject as we all do, but he waited until all the elements within the scene could be placed or had moved into a place, where the image then had a painterly composed look to it, in other words he didn't just replicate reality, he waited until reality looked like a painting." .....  Dave (Isle of Skye)


Daves, you're on the malts.

HC-B was both painter and photographer, but his photographs bear no resemblance to paintings at all.

If you simply refer to composition, that applies to anything graphic, even the designs on the surface of your carpets and the dishes in the sink; the design has to fit the structure that bears it: the shape of the vase, the format of the frame. That's all.

HC-B claimed to have been a surrealist, more than anything else, and maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. What he was was rather shrewd, and gifted with a good eye. One can't ever know how much was 'decisive moment' and how much rehearsed moment. To me, it doesn't matter a damn: the published pictures generally look good, and that's all I ask when I buy a publication. Whether the original purposes were for left-wing objectives or not doesn't interest me at this late stage: I enjoy him for his photography. Period.

But painting doesn't come into his photography: it remains in his work with the brush. I do understand what you are implying, but I don't think you are on the right track at all making the connection. Using myself as prime example, the one I know best: I painted before I photographed, but soon learned I could never be good enough to make a go of it with paint, so the camera was an easy way out still giving me self-expression. Anything in common between the two mediums? Yes, the sense of design. But that is not owed to painting; that's inborn regardless of where or how it might be applied.

I hope I'm not coming over as heavy, but I'm exhausted and need to go to bed, but can't not respond.

;-)

Rob

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2016, 10:09:27 am »

Hi Rob,

Yes perhaps I got a little carried away in my scribblings, I suppose what I am trying to say is, that reality is what reality is and therefore it cannot be art, but by pursuing our art through photography based on the subject of reality, are we not endeavouring to convert that reality into a representational object that is either better, or more complete, or more organised than reality normally is?

Yes I know HCB was also a painter, but he was far more successful as a photographer, but I would still argue that it was his painterly eye that allowed him to use both the form and compositional elements of a painting to create a photograph, because he knew what went where for best artistic effect and so he could capture it with a camera whenever he saw it.

I would argue that painting and photography are virtually the same thing, and that we are all painters at heart, it is just that some of us do not have what it takes to paint with a brush, so we try to create something as near as we can to what we would like to paint, but using a camera instead of a brush.

A good exercise for a novice photographer wanting to advance their ability to see photographically, is to look on-line at various pictures of paintings, then pick out one that you like and try to make a photograph based on the composition of that painting, it doesn't have to look exactly like the painting, but it does have to resemble it in some way. Then pick another painting and so on.

Dave
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RSL

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2016, 10:52:18 am »

Hang on, Dave, while I dust myself off. I've been ROTFL. What HCB learned in his very precise painting lessons with André Lhote was composition. It's essential to understand composition if you're going to do any visual art. And you can learn a lot by studying the great painters. But photography is anything but "the same thing" as painting. Rob had it right. With a camera you can't move things around in order to fit a formal composition. You have to watch and snap at the moment things fall into place. It's hard to visualize that idea if you're a landscaper, but street is the great teacher of photography. And the way you learn "to see photographically" is to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and cuss the results until you begin to get what you thought you'd get. The idea of trying to copy paintings with a camera is what got me rolling on the floor.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2016, 11:58:41 am »

Hang on, Dave, while I dust myself off. I've been ROTFL.

I think you will find that quite a few well known modern photographers espouse this very idea, Art Wolfe being an example as well as our very own dear departed Mr Reichmann - Art Wolfe discusses this very idea here.

Want to see how abstract art began and then morphed into photography? Then go here

I don't see why you are finding this so difficult to digest Russ?

And the way you learn "to see photographically" is to shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and cuss the results until you begin to get what you thought you'd get.

Nope, I entirely disagree there Russ, practice does not guarantee you are going to get good at anything, never has and never will, if it did then I would be able play my guitar like Hendrix and I can't and believe me, I have been trying hard to do just that for the last 45 years and I am still useless.

Here is a simple question Russ, if you could paint as good as any painter that had ever lived, would you put down your brush in preference to picking your camera ever again?

Probably not.
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RSL

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2016, 12:48:49 pm »

Nope, I entirely disagree there Russ, practice does not guarantee you are going to get good at anything, never has and never will, if it did then I would be able play my guitar like Hendrix and I can't and believe me, I have been trying hard to do just that for the last 45 years and I am still useless.

It's not a question of "practice." It's a question of finding out what works and what doesn't. The first thing you learn by shooting and shooting is what doesn't work. Once you've thoroughly established that, you're ready to learn what does work. At lot of people shoot and shoot and never learn what doesn't work. I see it all the time -- even here on LuLa. Maybe that's what's happening with your guitar.
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Peterretep

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2016, 01:52:29 pm »

I just want to comment about the issue that has been mentioned regarding the blurry smooth look that moving water gets when photographed. Most often that look which was criticized is due not to a desire to intentionally make it look that way but by the necessity for long exposures. When photographing scenes such as this, in order to get good image quality you need to shoot at both a low iso or asa and have decent depth of field. The shade from the trees also cuts back on the light. Together that will easily give you a long enough exposure for the moving water to blur. 

Rob C

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2016, 02:54:56 pm »

It's not a question of "practice." It's a question of finding out what works and what doesn't. The first thing you learn by shooting and shooting is what doesn't work. Once you've thoroughly established that, you're ready to learn what does work. At lot of people shoot and shoot and never learn what doesn't work. I see it all the time -- even here on LuLa. Maybe that's what's happening with your guitar.



At the risk of coming across as a mutual admiration society, I have to say that Russ is right. You sometimes have to spend a helluva lot of time in the photographic wilderness, but not always.

Again, I dig deeply into my own life.

The moment I realised photography was going to be my thing, I knew it was going to be fashion. I spent from six to seven years working in an engineering company's photo unit mainly printing b/w and colour. That time felt wasted, then, but the reality is that I gained an expertise in printing, especially batch printing (this was all by hand, in a dish) runs of maybe fifty identical images, something that came into its own when I went solo and ended up doing exactly that for the PR purposes of fashion clients. The thing is, as I have confessed here before, on joining that photo unit I already imagined myself a hot printer. I soon learned that I knew nothing. At the end of that job, I knew all I ever needed to know about darkrooms.

Now, fashion. Yes, I'd shot some PR stuff for drama students, and had never touched commercial fashion. But, I never, for a moment, imagined that I wouldn't know how to do it. It worked immediately. Very well, too. BUT: I had spent those engineering company years buying Vogue and Playboy and reading every last morsel of print between the covers, and digesting every goddam picture therein. Was a time I could almost unfailingly name every Vogue photographer by style, without looking at the credit line. Fashion photography goes so much further than an understanding of how to make an image: that image has to express an ethic, the ethos of its moment. So yes, as Russ has often stated, you gotta look, and look, and look, and learn not just what it is, but also what it's about. And the about you learn from reading what the people in the industry write and feel about it, not just what the snappers snap; they are already a step out of it, in most ways.

So, when the fashion ended, and the calendars came in for me, I already had the understanding of how to encourage women to be free and contribute, which is not the same as taking direction all the time. Fashion had already conditioned my emotional reactions and likes, so the pin-ups never - I hope - looked vulgar. It just wasn't in my nature to slide towards the pornographic. (I had my own judge and executioner back at home, bless her. I wanted her to feel good about what I did.)

In time, I retired, did almost nothing photographic for years. Then, I lost my wife eight years ago. How do you fill emptiness? I was lucky in that I had photography behind me, so that's what became the alternative to, and saviour from the madhouse. But what to shoot? Models without a client to pay for 'em will ruin you faster than alcohol, so that was out. I never thought of myself as any kind of hero, so street always felt too dangerous for a thin guy to take up. Landscape I never could see as anything but a background to something else, so back to the possible: the two little towns on either side of me. In my website I have a set of galleries under the name of The Biscuit Tin. Those are pretty much a collection of old stuff and attempts at finding something that might interest me to dig further. Nothing there really did, and then one day, I rediscovered a very old photo-love I'd first encountered in the 50s: Saul Leiter. Bang! But that bang took years to arrive.

That spiritual explosion led to the current run of Glimpsed Parallels galleries, and I have found what I expect to interest me until I can either see no more or just fall over dead.

So again, as has been said so often before, it can take you years to find what's you. And it's got nothing to do with any other form of artistic endeavour. And even less about what other folks think should be your anointed route to revelation; everything you need is already there inside you, and you have to work with the mental kit God gave you; it just takes the time it takes.

Rob
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 02:58:28 pm by Rob C »
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2016, 03:24:24 pm »


Those are pretty much a collection of old stuff and attempts at finding something that might interest me to dig further. Nothing there really did, and then one day, I rediscovered a very old photo-love I'd first encountered in the 50s: Saul Leiter. Bang! But that bang took years to arrive.

Rob

I bought the Saul Leiter video download "In No Great Hurry: 13 Lessons in Life" as soon as it came available and have already enjoyed watching it several times, I have even had quite a few attempts at his window reflection idea, but to no avail unfortunately.

Don't know if you know this Rob, but there is also a few good conversations with him available free on-line here and here and also a review of his work here
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Rob C

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2016, 03:54:57 pm »

I bought the Saul Leiter video download "In No Great Hurry: 13 Lessons in Life" as soon as it came available and have already enjoyed watching it several times, I have even had quite a few attempts at his window reflection idea, but to no avail unfortunately.

Don't know if you know this Rob, but there is also a few good conversations with him available free on-line here and here and also a review of his work here


Thanks, Dave, I'll check them out now, but I have searched and searched for stuff so often I fear I may have exhausted supply! But ta, I'll go look the noo.

I've sometimes thought of getting that video: there's a great teaser available... seems it took quite a while to get it made - over a couple of years, in fact?

Regarding his actual pictures: I think they are of their time, and very much of NY. My attempts were originally more as rip-offs, but that hadn't a snowball's - no yellow cabs - or even chrome bumpers - and I don't even have real cities! As for glass doors or windows with condensation... only see it on the bedroom and sitting room doors in deepest winter, never in bars, which always seem to be too far in off the rain. Or closed. So, the spirit remains in my head, but manifests as it must, as something associated but hardly even similar. But that has grabbed me, so I hope to stay happy with it.

Thanks again for the links!

Rob

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2016, 04:57:52 pm »

You can buy the film download here for not a lot of money, well a whole lot less than what I paid for it when it first came out  :o

I'd go for the Special Edition, just scroll down the screen a little to see that option.

Enjoy.
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Zorki5

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2016, 06:42:09 pm »

You can buy the film download here for not a lot of money, well a whole lot less than what I paid for it when it first came out  :o

I'd go for the Special Edition, just scroll down the screen a little to see that option.

Enjoy.

Thanks for the above link, Dave -- I happen to be Leiter's fan, too. Watched that The Art of Photography's video (you linked at the end of your other post) shortly after it was out in 2013...

One question about this new link: are you sure it's a download? When I tried to buy it (the version you recommended), description said "1+ hours of video, instant streaming, yours forever!". Hope I'm not about to buy a "right to watch it" on their site? (People selling videos do all sorts of crazy stuff: Tim Cooper's video on composition that I bought ended up being a Flash application! Grossly inconvenient... but still totally worth it though  :) ).

So, any idea?..
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Zorki5

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2016, 07:07:00 pm »

One question about this new link: are you sure it's a download? When I tried to buy it (the version you recommended), description said "1+ hours of video, instant streaming, yours forever!". Hope I'm not about to buy a "right to watch it" on their site? (People selling videos do all sorts of crazy stuff: Tim Cooper's video on composition that I bought ended up being a Flash application! Grossly inconvenient... but still totally worth it though  :) ).

So, any idea?..

Answered my own question: just went ahead and bought it... and, yes, the "purchase" was a message with a "unique" link to the site.

Hope it doesn't go down any time soon... Or that they do not bind it to an IP or some cookies (so that when I move somewhere, or upgrade my notebook or change browser it stops working) :-\

Anyway, it works for now, so -- thanks again  :)
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2016, 03:06:32 am »

Answered my own question: just went ahead and bought it... and, yes, the "purchase" was a message with a "unique" link to the site.

Hope it doesn't go down any time soon... Or that they do not bind it to an IP or some cookies (so that when I move somewhere, or upgrade my notebook or change browser it stops working) :-\

Anyway, it works for now, so -- thanks again  :)

When I bought the download of "In No Great Hurry: 13 Lessons in Life" for around $20US, it actually let me download the file directly to my HDD, which was around 1.2gb if I remember correctly.

However there may be another way for you try to get a legitimate physical download onto your HDD once you have paid for it of course and a method that certainly works for youtube's free content. If you are running Firefox, then go here and install the Ant video downloader, then once you begin playing your streaming content, just hit the little moving download arrow in the top right hand corner of your screen and choose the highest resolution version to start the download, which may come down in chunks or as a single file - you will also have to make sure that the ffmpeg converter is installed on your system through the Ant downloader for it to work correctly, especially with youtube content, who try all sorts of tricks to prevent you downloading their free to view content, but Ant always seem able to get around them, but for most sites and for most of the time, it usually works a treat, but not always  ;) Oh and you may need to use something like "Any Video Converter" software to convert a file if it uses a weird codec that will not play on your TV.

The only reason I use this trick, is because I don't have an Internet connected TV, so if I want to watch something from the net on the TV, I have to download it and then put it on a memory stick or copy the file onto my Cyclone Primus 2TB media Player, which now has around 1.4TB of mainly photography based content on it, oh and I also have a large library of DVD's on photography from around the world, which I can also play on my region free DVD player, the latest edition to my huge and ever growing library being all the Steve Kossack videos series.

Although I now realise that the above excuse for downloading everything is in fact just that, an excuse, as I have obviously become a fanatical photography related video hoarder and have now managed to accumulate thousands and thousands hours of video from many sources around the world, but hey why not, I find the rubbish on TV boring and ruined by a deluge of adverts, so now I tend to watch my own Photography based TV channel whenever I turn on the idiot box ;D

And some of the DVD's I bought years ago are now going up in price for the physical disks, as they become ever harder to find, such as the Contacts Vol1, 2 and 3.

 ;)
« Last Edit: November 10, 2016, 03:09:49 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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muntanela

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Re: Smokey Mountain Stream - Middle Prong
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2016, 12:07:05 pm »

I like the first one in itself and I like it much more than the original image, where the water has very little texture and even unpleasant burned highlights (on my monitor).
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