A small reflection on 44x33 mirrorless

[Michael Erlewine]

Hello Michael,
i can understand what you say, but this post, like mine now, is also of-topic.

The best thing to do is to ignore it and stay on topic.
The moderator will have to take care of the problem...

This will be my last post that will be of-topic.

cheers PK

I understand, but this is not just a one-off example, but a serial thing. I can (and will) go elsewhere for my technical discussions, but I feel this kind of thing (and the cronyism that allows it to persist) cheapens what IMO is a very good photography site. This has happened before and folks here have privately messaged me that this character does this all the time. I will restrict my participation here to posting photos and not attempt to have actual discussions. There are very few good forums left IMO.

[Manoli]

It's a sad day when LuLa loses yet another contributor for the bloody-minded foolishness of a few to whom being obnoxious is tantamount to an art form and getting banned akin to a medal of honour.. You had the misfortune to engage with another one in some of the earlier Nikon threads.

I've appreciated your postings and hope that you'll 'not go' but rather use the 'ignore button' (either metaphorically or literally) more frequently. These are early days for this class of camera, and I for one, welcome the direct, hands-on feedback, and field-reports that some users can and do contribute.

Hopefully the admin will redirect the Internet Industry Pundits & Philosophers to an appropriate corner of LuLa. 
(IIPP does that qualify as a new abbreviation ?)

I understand, but this is not just a one-off example, but a serial thing. I can (and will) go elsewhere for my technical discussions, but I feel this kind of thing (and the cronyism that allows it to persist) cheapens what IMO is a very good photography site. This has happened before and folks here have privately messaged me that this character does this all the time. I will restrict my participation here to posting photos and not attempt to have actual discussions. There are very few good forums left IMO.

[Rob C]

I understand, but this is not just a one-off example, but a serial thing. I can (and will) go elsewhere for my technical discussions, but I feel this kind of thing (and the cronyism that allows it to persist) cheapens what IMO is a very good photography site. This has happened before and folks here have privately messaged me that this character does this all the time. I will restrict my participation here to posting photos and not attempt to have actual discussions. There are very few good forums left IMO.

Michael, the problem isn't particular people you don't like, the problem is life: real, spoken conversation never moves in a straight line - surely you've noticed that? If it did, folks would die of boredom or grow stiffly into whatever space they fitted.

Relax, go with the flow. If anyone is really interested in whichever point, they will always naturally return to it. If not, it didn't really matter that much to them anyway.

Rob

[Michael Erlewine]

Well, I am not new to forums. I ran forums under contract for both CompuServe (music and film) and Microsoft (over 100 on MSN) for years, and understand only too well how individuals arise who have time on their hands and succeed at obstructing, diverting, and hijacking threads, not because they have a point (or much of one), but because they can and have become skilled at doing so. The result is exchanges like this one we are having here, which also are sidebars. I considered making a home and spending more time here more than once, only to be reminded why I don’t. You suggest that I ignore them. Well, OK, but having done so, I find that these obstructers just continue to demand attention and use up all the oxygen. This is nothing new. These types  love to lecture to me, but I don’t see them being told to tone down by moderators, etc., which is just, as I pointed out, an example of cronyism at its worst. It is sad that I am privately messaged that these characters are NOT what the forum is about, etc., but no one asks them to back off a bit.

[Manoli]

These types  love to lecture to me, but I don’t see them being told to tone down by moderators, etc., which is just, as I pointed out, an example of cronyism at its worst. It is sad that I am privately messaged that these characters are NOT what the forum is about, etc., but no one asks them to back off a bit.

Michael,

I'm not sure 'cronyism' is the right word here, perhaps 'indulged' ? The previous abrasive Nikon poster, I believe was banned, and not too soon. Some of us do tell them to 'back off' but in the final analysis being selective and the 'ignore' button are better for your blood pressure.

[Michael Erlewine]

Michael,

I'm not sure 'cronyism' is the right word here, perhaps 'indulged' ? The previous abrasive Nikon poster, I believe was banned, and not too soon. Some of us do tell them to 'back off' but in the final analysis being selective and the 'ignore' button are better for your blood pressure.

Ok, I hear you And I realize by complaining as I am I use up whatever goodwill cache I might have. I just want to make sure folks are aware of this kind of situation, and that a response like mine is happening. I don't know these characters well enough to feel indulgent to them. I will perhaps try again. Is there an actual "ignore" button, and if so, where? Enough said.

[Manoli]

Is there an actual "ignore" button, and if so, where? Enough said.

Under your profile page:
Luminous Landscape Forum > Profile of x > Summary , there is an 'Buddies/Ignore List' section

And I realize by complaining as I am I use up whatever goodwill cache I might have.

Nope, you're not - anything but.

[Telecaster]

Well, I am not new to forums. I ran forums under contract for both CompuServe (music and film)…

Aha! When I first read a post of yours here I knew I'd run across your online self before. Just couldn't remember where. I was a long-time CS user, going back to the early '80s. 

-Dave-

[Michael Erlewine]

Aha! When I first read a post of yours here I knew I'd run across your online self before. Just couldn't remember where. I was a long-time CS user, going back to the early '80s. 

-Dave-

Long time ago, some before the World-Wide-Web existed. Yes, I ran the Music and Movie/Film forums for CompuServe for quite some time, two of their most popular features.

[Michael Erlewine]

The Hasselblad X1D manual (English) is available and very worthwhile browsing. It makes me more interested than ever and impatient.

http://static.hasselblad.com/2016/06/X1D_USER-GUIDE-Book_161003.pdf

[Rob C]

Michael,

I'm not sure 'cronyism' is the right word here, perhaps 'indulged' ? The previous abrasive Nikon poster, I believe was banned, and not too soon. Some of us do tell them to 'back off' but in the final analysis being selective and the 'ignore' button are better for your blood pressure.

You're right: I don't read everything, obviously enough, but what I find is that people discover natural affinities and respond to posts that interest them and mostly not to others.

On top of that, you must factor in the fact that some people enjoy writing, whereas for others it's the equivalent of drawing teeth. That can result in the same people replying to one another quite frequently which could give the impression of an inner club, but only because of the paucity of fellow scribes. Most writers would, I'm sure, welcome wider responses to their efforts to keep things alive and not withering on the vine.

Rob

[Michael Erlewine]

Here are a couple of  YouTube videos by Ming Thein on the X1D, including one on the user interface of the X1D. It helps to give a better idea of how this camera works operationally.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQO3hVku9vU

Here is the first video by Thein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEp9X9hRprk

[Manoli]

... and for those interested, wi-fi tethering with the X1D:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JXC79GpMmg

[NancyP]

Hey Michael, don't ditch us! Most of us can discipline our fingers enough to not get obnoxious (no guarantees about "boring" though - one person's boring is another person's interesting post).

[Michael Erlewine]

Hey Michael, don't ditch us! Most of us can discipline our fingers enough to not get obnoxious (no guarantees about "boring" though - one person's boring is another person's interesting post).

Not trying to ditch anyone. The problems here are pretty much endemic to all gear forums I know. We have to keep the forums we care about clean. It can be done politely, with respect, but it has to be done not just by moderators, but most of all by members. We need forums such as this one because so much is happening in the field of photography just now. In the area of MF, I am not an expert, but a willing learner. I represent what I believe is the tip of the iceberg of DSLR users who finally are ready to add MF to their gear. I know DSLRs, but my only experience with MF is the Mamiya RZ67 and a digital back some years ago. The interface on the RX67 was too primitive, but what is happening with the X1D and Fugi MF mirrorless is just right on time. Canon and Nikon have missed a beat, at least for me and IMO. I have a great many Nikon lenses and some of the more exotic and commercial lenses are as good as they get, but many (to most) of the lenses they have been producing in the last 15 or so years are not as good as they could offer. Witness the new Nikikor 105mm f/1.4, which demonstrates that they finally have the right idea, again, IMO... for my use.

GetDPi.com is an example of a site that is more aware, as I see it. Why not make LULA all that it can be and all that it has been in past. Again, that is just my opinion.

[Rob C]

Well, I'm no gearhead, but I can't say I find too many people here who are not!

In my view, it takes all sorts, and the 'heads keep the companies going - more or less, though perhaps even they tire of spending fortunes to discover, in sober moments, that nothing suddenly got much better in their photographs.

I watched the Ming video and laughed out loud when he made the statement about the 500 Series being light! Bet he hadn't ever had to carry a C and a C/M and lenses over his shoulder and tramp across beaches the while! And, of course, hump a tripod along just because those cameras were angels on three legs, but pigs hand-held. But, the video was sweet and the photographs very pretty, too. There was a brief moment when the frame was just ripples of colour on water, just like in Jazz on a Summer's Day, the Bert Stern movie of the Newport Jazz festival  of 50-something. As I say, nothing gets that much better, if even as good as what's already been possible for many years. It's the people have the magic.

Rob

[itsdoable]

One that doesn't print, is by definition not doing or anything related to PHOTO-GRAPHY.... A photo-graph, can by definition only be the printed thing.
...

The greek roots of:
"photo" = light
"graph" = write

I don't see how this "by definition" means a printed thing.

[Rob C]

The greek roots of:
"photo" = light
"graph" = write

I don't see how this "by definition" means a printed thing.

Personal interpretation. The curse of the legality realm.

Rob

[Michael Erlewine]

The greek roots of:
"photo" = light
"graph" = write

I don't see how this "by definition" means a printed thing.

Correct. The word "photography" is a combination of the Greek root words "photo-," meaning "light," and "-graphia," meaning "writing," or "drawing." Thus, "photography" literally means "writing or drawing with light" of as I like to say "Painting with light."


Those of us who choose not to print our photos very much still enjoy large sensors, at least I do. It was like when someone told me that because I was not a professional photographer, I should not be commenting. Well, I chose not to be a professional photographer because I have a family and those photographers I know have trouble making money, so I made it elsewhere.

As for filling walls with my own printed work, I don't do that either. I have many hundreds of thousands of photos and my family.... maybe... want to see nine or ten of them before they start to roll their eyes. I post a few photos on forums like these, and I do a blog on Facebook each day for some 5000 "friends," and try to post a photo there.

So, I do photography for the sheer process and love of it and I look at the results on a large corrected monitor in Photoshop or Lightroom.

As for these new mirrorless MF cameras like the Fuju and the X1D, almost no one I know has one yet. Ming Thein has published (to my knowledge) more on the X1D than anyone else, and having followed his work for quite some time, I trust his evaluation completely at this point. Having been in lock-step with Thein through the Nikon D810 (and many lenses), I find him very careful and thorough in his comments. Therefore I trust his evaluation of the X1D, but I certainly wait for other reviews and the general vetting of this new mirrorless MF camera. 

[BJL]

Looking at features other than sensors, these new 44x33mm format EVF cameras are competing with 36x24mm cameras costing around $3000, not the more expensive high frame rate, extremely rugged "PJ" models.  So there is quite a price gap for the image size increase of 38% on the short edge (most relevant to portraits and such) and 22% on the long edge (relevant to wider "landscape" shapes).

My gut feeling is that in the long run, larger formats will have to justify themselves largely by the optical advantages of their lenses, as sensor progress pushes beyond the limits of what most lenses are capable of delivering.  Pixel count differences alone will not be enough even for most users of high-level gear, and new technology will probably get more and more DR out of ever smaller pixels.