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Author Topic: Profoto Pro 10  (Read 11765 times)

FelixWu

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2017, 10:22:23 AM »

So my question was how ghosting could occur if two separate heads have different t0.1-times but still fast enough to perfectly freeze water splashes, not what t0.1 is. In my mind if both heads perfectly freeze water splashes, does it really matter if the t0.1-times differ between the two?
It doesn't matter if you shoot a walking person at 1/500s or 1/8000s...As long as your are faster than the action speed, you will freeze the action with your camera shutter...same applies to flash duration.
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Brent Daniels

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2017, 12:41:42 AM »

Profoto, which I love, has never released the t0.1 duration for Pro-10 ,and I have specifically emailed them  and asked for it with no response. That tells me something. I shoot Profoto for everything, except for ultra high speed where Broncolor Scoros is the choice.

With both Profoto Pro-10 and Broncolor Scoros the flash duration and power are connected. More power = longer flash duration. Low power = short flash duration. The Broncolor advantage is that you can dial in the flash duration you desire for an image. However with Broncolor there is a colour temp difference between full power slow duration and the min power fast flash duration. My guess is about 7000 to 4500 degrees Kelvin. Profoto is much more even in colour temperature through the power range.

How is this important? If you have a Broncolor lit set with heads at different power levels you are more likely to have different colour balance levels through your set. Basically with Broncolor you need to dial all packs to the same flash duration to maintain even color temp and then play within the power range for that speed range. Profoto color temp is very stable from full to low power so there is less effect. 

Film was much more forgiving of these color temp changes through a set, or smoother, but it shows more in digital. To some the difference mean something. To others it is no big deal. But it is there.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2017, 05:54:23 AM »

However with Broncolor there is a colour temp difference between full power slow duration and the min power fast flash duration. My guess is about 7000 to 4500 degrees Kelvin. Profoto is much more even in colour temperature through the power range.

Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.

Cheers,
Bernard

JoeKitchen

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2017, 01:53:45 PM »

profoto never released any official info on t0.1! but thankfully with the latest light meter it could be tested!

The unofficial spec according to unofficial test however....pro10's shortest flash duration at t0.1 = 1/21000s +/-. lol

Quote
So my question was how ghosting could occur if two separate heads have different t0.1-times but still fast enough to perfectly freeze water splashes, not what t0.1 is. In my mind if both heads perfectly freeze water splashes, does it really matter if the t0.1-times differ between the two?

Although this is nice, it still does not matter unless you can sync all of the heads to be firing at the same exact speed, otherwise you still get ghosting. 

You're never really freezing motion, you are just excepting a certain amount of motion blur will happen, but hopefully not (too) noticeable.  The problem occurs when an object is moving fast enough where the amount of motion blur caused by two different light sources don't perfectly overlap.  This is when you get ghosting and it starts to look bad.  For people, you're most likely never going to notice it; for a splash, it will become very noticeable. 

Just for fun, before syncing the packs, I did a recent test with the Scoros where one pack was firing at 1/7500 and the other at 1/8000 (at t0.1).  That is a difference of 1/120,000 second and I still got ghosting. 

Mind you I was working with a 60 MP capture, damn sharp technical camera lenses and clear water, but it happened. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 02:08:55 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 01:56:31 PM »

Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.

Cheers,
Bernard

So long as you set the pack to pick the best possible flash duration for a given power, the color will be consistent.  It is when you start to alter the speeds to sync the heads that you get off color. 

Here's an outtake example.  Before syncing the speeds, the color was consistent through out.  Afterwards, the front went a pale blueish green and the background pink.  It is really noticeable in this image since everything is white; in others it may not be noticeable. 

Anyway, overall easy to fix, except for where the splash and pour in the final overlapped the background and foreground. 
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 02:16:41 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 02:14:23 PM »

Interesting, without having used the Scoro I was under the impression based on Broncolor marketing materials that the color temp stability accross the power range was a strong point of their offering.

Cheers,
Bernard

It absolutely is, obviously you have to understand how it all plays together to get the best out of it. Without altering the flash duration you already get a very short flash duration with the Scoro packs. Key is the cut off of the flash tail of the light with the IGBT circuit which always takes place when not using all stored energy and leads to a sharper image. Careful setup of the lamps to keep the power down or the use of twin heads where you can´t is also of great value. If you need to get further and keep the color between the heads it´s best to alter the color temp towards blue which also results in shorter flash duration while keeping all heads in the same color range. Alternately if you want to keep it simple you may just use the "speed" button (which does exactly that without letting you have entire control). Just setting flash duration to min is not what you want to do, it´s for extreme applications. In this setting you may get indeed a significant shift towards blue when power is dialed down to a very low setting. BTW, all the same applies to the grafit A series which could also be set to a color shift in 50deg steps resulting in shorter flash duration by using the broncolor FCC. There are a lot of extra functions deep down in the menus which makes the broncolor packs incredible versatile. I don´t want to bash the Profoto system which would be a close second choice for me but depending on the job if I rent and cannot get broncolor packs I might really feel kind of limited. Hope this helps a bit ;-) Cheers, Ulf

Brent Daniels

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2017, 03:35:32 PM »

I just checked the data sheet for the latest Scoros 3200 pack and the flash duration at full power is 1/132 sec t0.1. That is the #1 reason I bought Profoto vs Broncolor for my day to day flash
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2017, 04:20:52 PM »

I just checked the data sheet for the latest Scoros 3200 pack and the flash duration at full power is 1/132 sec t0.1. That is the #1 reason I bought Profoto vs Broncolor for my day to day flash

Yes sure, as Profoto uses higher voltage (1000V vs. 700V) it definitely has the shorter flash duration at maximum power. That said I have used maximum power from my broncolor packs maybe once or twice in the last 20 years, just being lazy to not switch to a twin head or over to my Bläsing packs, because if I really need power (they run at 2500Volts and use metall paper capacitors, even the small 2500J one has more light output than a 3200J electrolytic capacitor pack) these are the way to go. Once you start to dial the brons down the flash duration shortens in favor for broncolor as they simply switch off and cut the flash tail. So about 99.9% of the time I use my packs.

We´re on the edge of technology these days, there have been packs with higher voltage, tubes with three electrodes or closed ring shape for shorter flash duration, all of which have their pros and cons. The way I use my broncolor system it provides the best color consistency and an advanced crisp flash duration in combination with minimum wear of capacitors and flash tubes. It simply is as good as it gets. I´d always try to avoid to torture my tubes with maximum power. (3200Ws is easily 500.000Watts for the time of the flash duration) I know how those units work, based on that knowledge I made my choice. Both manufacturers sell excellent equipment and I can easily see the handling with rotary knobs and the uncluttered design in favor for Profoto. Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 04:24:57 PM by UlfKrentz »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2018, 04:28:07 AM »

Profoto, which I love, has never released the t0.1 duration for Pro-10 ,and I have specifically emailed them  and asked for it with no response. That tells me something. I shoot Profoto for everything, except for ultra high speed where Broncolor Scoros is the choice.

In fact the Pro-10 now ships with a table giving T0.5 and T0.1 at all power settings in normal and speed mode.

For example, the T0.1 at 5.0 power (75 Ws) in speed mode is 1/10,000 sec.

At full power (2400 Ws), the t0.1 is 1/600s while the t0.5 is 1/1000s.

Assuming you work with 2 heads, the power being 1200 Ws, you start with a t0.1 of 1/1500s.

Not sure how this compares with the Broncolor, but I found these numbers to be pretty good.

Cheers,
Bernard

FelixWu

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2018, 11:34:50 PM »

In fact the Pro-10 now ships with a table giving T0.5 and T0.1 at all power settings in normal and speed mode.

For example, the T0.1 at 5.0 power (75 Ws) in speed mode is 1/10,000 sec.

At full power (2400 Ws), the t0.1 is 1/600s while the t0.5 is 1/1000s.

Assuming you work with 2 heads, the power being 1200 Ws, you start with a t0.1 of 1/1500s.

Not sure how this compares with the Broncolor, but I found these numbers to be pretty good.

Cheers,
Bernard
The Pro10 is faster than Scoro, finally.
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #30 on: August 11, 2018, 12:26:22 PM »

The Pro10 is faster than Scoro, finally.

See my post above. Nothing new or surprising here. It probably simply boils down to what lights / modifiers you personally prefer. They are both excellent systems.

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2018, 12:54:42 AM »

Hi Ulf,

I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.

cheers,
Bernard

bcooter

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2018, 07:56:01 PM »

Hi Ulf,

I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.

cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

I don't know what you own or what you do but from someone that owns both my experience is profto is tougher and travels well, bron is more expensive and offers more modifiers and solutions.

Rent them, try them, then you'll know.

Like Ulf who knows how to light and I think buys it rather than rent.   He went one way, I went both.

Now if you want to spend big money buy Briese.  They don't do anything different except make you sell your house.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 11:00:21 AM by bcooter »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2018, 08:25:52 PM »

I don't know what you own or what you do but from someone that owns both my experience is profto is tougher and travels well, bron is more expensive and offers more modifiers and solutions.

Rent them, try them, then you'll know.

Like Ulf who knows how to light and I think buys it rather than rent.   He went one way, I went both.

Now if you want to spend big money buy Briese.  They don't do anything different except make you sell your house.

You'll like them though because their are yellow and black.  Kind of like that 1980's Nikon Logo.

Hi Bcooter,

Not too sure why this is becoming about me, but I own a mix of Profoto monolights/pack/heads/triggers/modifiers and Broncolor modifiers that I find very impressive. The prices are pretty much the same in Japan (Bron was in fact a bit cheaper a year ago, now they are a bit more expensive when taking discounts into account), but Profoto is more readily available and I think that they appear to be overall a bit more responsive to market changes (support of Sony and Fuji cameras,...).

As always, I try to figure out what's best for my needs/budget and go with that taking into account my previous decisions (right or wrong).

But it has never been my intention to turn this into a brand discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 08:33:45 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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bcooter

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2018, 08:38:54 PM »

Hi Bcooter,

Not too sure why this is becoming about me, but I own a mix of Profoto monolights/pack/heads/triggers/modifiers and Broncolor modifiers that I find very impressive. The prices are pretty much the same in Japan (Bron was in fact a bit cheaper a year ago, now they are a bit more expensive when taking discounts into account), but Profoto is more readily available and I think that they appear to be overall a bit more responsive to market changes (support of Sony and Fuji cameras,...).

As always, I try to figure out what's best for my needs/budget and go with that taking into account my previous decisions (right or wrong).

But it has never been my intention to turn this into a brand discussion.

Cheers,
Bernard


I'd love to see what you shoot with all that equipment and why.

I show an image or video with most posts, whether people like it or not, I put it out there and for reference.


IMO

BC
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 10:59:07 AM by bcooter »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2018, 09:13:32 PM »


I'd love to see what you shoot with all that equipment and why.

I show an image or video with most posts, whether people like it or not, I put it out there and for reference.


IMO

BC

Here are a few answers:
- I don't currently make money from photography, but I try to be very dedicated to achieving the best possible images of what I have the opportunity of shooting considering the constraints I have (family, work,...),
- I work in a different line of business not related to photography and I know what being a business professional means with regular 70+ hours working weeks. Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, I have a lot of respect for you and other top pros facing tough competitive business environments and having to deliver. I don't know if I would be able to do it were I to focus on photography as a profession,
- I post many images of what I shoot for the fun of it. Just check my Flickr link below and you will find a wide collection of images. I believe I am one of the contributors at LL posting the larger number of images in the threads dedicated to this,
- I photograph for a variety of reason such as creating beautiful images, documenting the world around me, serving my friends and relatives with memorable images of some life events I am part of,...
- My studio work is mostly private (and it may or may not remain private moving forward, we shall see, I just posted one example at the bottom of this post),
- I currently work with cameras produced by Nikon, Sony, Hasselblad, Arcaswiss, Apple, Ebony and lenses produced by Nikon, Sigma, Zeiss, Leica, Rodenstock, Pentax and Fuji. Other than Canon, whose equipment is not compatible with what I currently own, there are very few brands I am currently not using. So although I have been served very well by Nikon equipment till date (and I do think they produce the best 35mm DSLRs on the market for still photographers), I have no particular liking for them.

Hope it answers your questions? Here are a few recent random images to illustrate the post. ;)





























Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 08:21:17 PM by BernardLanguillier »
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UlfKrentz

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #36 on: August 14, 2018, 05:17:30 AM »

Hi Ulf,

I believe they are. I was just providing an information that had been described as missing until now. I had no intention to start a Profoto/Bron competitive discussion.

cheers,
Bernard

That was actually not aimed at you, I was referring to FelixWu. Now regarding this brand competition it is good to see Profoto is catching up (and may even surpass in some situations) with broncolors cut off technology. I'm not a single brand guy, in fact I mix all sort of brands. With every brand you find some products that stand out and I am always open to new solutions. Regarding Briese, they certainly have their place with the focus system but I strongly suggest to keep away from their packs, they are stuck in the 80ties. Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money  ;-) Cheers, Ulf

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #37 on: August 14, 2018, 05:50:17 AM »

Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money  ;-) Cheers, Ulf

Thanks a lot Ulf, much appreciated.

I guess the freedom of shooting whatever I want is nice. The freedom to spend whatever I can afford on top notch equipment without having to care about ROI is nice too (that being helped by my very limited expenditures in cars these past 25 years...). But every coin has 2 sides. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 07:05:10 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2018, 09:51:26 AM »



I found a young model willing to help dad test the new studio set up. The Hasselblad was already packed for a trip, so the D850 had to work a bit. ;)

Lighting is a main Para 88 to the right, Profoto Octobox as fill (both driven by the new Pro-10), Aladdin led as top/hair light and Profoto B1 as background light.

Advise most welcome. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

FelixWu

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Re: Profoto Pro 10
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2018, 03:41:45 AM »

That was actually not aimed at you, I was referring to FelixWu. Now regarding this brand competition it is good to see Profoto is catching up (and may even surpass in some situations) with broncolors cut off technology. I'm not a single brand guy, in fact I mix all sort of brands. With every brand you find some products that stand out and I am always open to new solutions. Regarding Briese, they certainly have their place with the focus system but I strongly suggest to keep away from their packs, they are stuck in the 80ties. Nice work btw. be glad to keep photography as an activity not primarily related to making money  ;-) Cheers, Ulf
I really hope the competition between companies will go more tougher so they can push to release better products one after another.

About 3-4 months back I had the opportunity working with two top assistants flew from China on an advertising shoot and when I asked what gears they prefer they both said Profoto for location and they would only use Bron in studio. On a two day shoot we used Bron Move for day one and Profoto B4 for day two and the experience was noticeably different. All of these packs were rental except my own B4. I recalled we had about 6packs and 10heads. The Profoto amount really shines on location while we had difficulties working with the Bron head amounts. They were just so tight to operate on the fly. Yes the move pack was significantly lighter than the B4 but with 8 photo assistants onset weight wasn’t that much of an issue at all.

I read on forum recently about Profoto will be updating its B2 I hope they can bring out a truly great product this time.
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