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Author Topic: Nikon in difficulty?  (Read 82517 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #100 on: October 19, 2016, 06:46:27 pm »

Well, the lenses do seem to be pretty good, and yet whether or not Nikon is dying does not have to correlate with the quality of their lenses in any way.

Well, I do agree, but you've got to read up the entire thread to understand that sentence.

Cheers,
Bernard

Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #101 on: October 19, 2016, 09:10:33 pm »

Well, I do agree, but you've got to read up the entire thread to understand that sentence.

Bernard, I surely did; my first post in this thread is on its page 1. There is no misunderstanding.
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Cornfield

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #102 on: November 07, 2016, 05:58:46 am »

Nikon is a takeover target for Sony and this story will develop soon.
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Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #103 on: November 07, 2016, 08:29:00 am »

Nikon is a takeover target for Sony and this story will develop soon.

Oh please...

This one had been debunked very shortly after it appeared; details here:

http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/rumor-versus-speculation.html
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Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #104 on: November 07, 2016, 11:00:31 pm »

Another rumor:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/4455533041/nikon-reportedly-eliminating-1000-jobs-in-japan

And another denial:

http://nikonrumors.com/2016/11/07/oops-nkon-denies-any-layofs.aspx/#more-108612

One thing is for sure: they do have an image of a company in [deep] trouble these days...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #105 on: November 07, 2016, 11:58:03 pm »

One thing is for sure: they do have an image of a company in [deep] trouble these days...

I find this crazy when you look at facts. Their product line has never looked as good compared to Canon's. Most of the gaps have been closed lenswise, most of their recent lenses are superior, they have better high end bodies in APS and action class, the D810 remains the best all round body 2 years after its release,...

Yet, few people seem to consider that Canon is in trouble.

Go figure.

If Nikon is in difficulty, Canon is IMHO in even more difficulty. The truth being that they both are but not quite as much as those "rumors" are telling us.

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #106 on: November 08, 2016, 12:32:31 am »

I find this crazy when you look at facts. Their product line has never looked as good compared to Canon's. Most of the gaps have been closed lenswise, most of their recent lenses are superior, they have better high end bodies in APS and action class, the D810 remains the best all round body 2 years after its release,...

Yet, few people seem to consider that Canon is in trouble.

Go figure.

If Nikon is in difficulty, Canon is IMHO in even more difficulty. The truth being that they both are but not quite as much as those "rumors" are telling us.

Cheers,
Bernard

Look at their financials and their in-house capabilities. Product lineup doesn't matter - look at Sony's lineup just five years ago.

Canon produces a lot more than just cameras. They can also design and manufacture their own electronics, including sensors. So can Sony - and they also happen to oplead the field in sensor technology.

Nikon is largely reliant on camera sales for its income. Not only that, but it can't even manfacture its own sensors. It can design some of them, but its best ones are all designed and made by Sony and Sony-owned subsidiaries. Yes, Nikon makes good products. But it has no other significant source of revenue, and its ability to continue developing and making good products is largely at the mercy of other companies. What would happen if they suddenly lost supply of Exmor and Toshiba sensors? Nikon-designed sensors (made by someone else) might hold up at the high-ISO, low-resolution end, but they'd lose the D7200 and D810 sensors that have worked so well for them, with no indication that anything they can design can match their performance.

Their product line might be good, but their very narrow focus and reliance on direct competitors for supply of critical pars puts them in a very weak position competition-wise. Basically, they live or die at Sony's behest. Cutting off supply of Exmor sensors might hurt Sony a bit (although most of their income isn't from cameras anyway) but it would deal a major, possibly lethal blow to Nikon - perhaps making their lens and non-sensor electronics manufacturing capabilities, and their library of patents, onto the market, for acquisition by a Sony eager to expand.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #107 on: November 08, 2016, 12:46:01 am »

Sensors are fast becoming a commodity. Pretty much everyone does the same thing nowadays and the gap of performance has decreased a lot, from Sony to Canon, CMOSIS, Samsung,... Not having in-house design/manufacturing has never been this irrelevant.

Besides, I am not sure that the talks about the demise of Nikon are based on their strategic risks from a sensor supply standpoint, they are based on a very mistaken understanding of their product line up, hence my incredulity.

Cheers,
Bernard

Zorki5

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #108 on: November 08, 2016, 09:14:38 am »

And another denial:

http://nikonrumors.com/2016/11/07/oops-nkon-denies-any-layofs.aspx/#more-108612

Well, that one was short-lived; the Board has decided they will go ahead with the cuts:

Notice of Restructuring
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chez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #109 on: November 08, 2016, 09:48:19 am »

I find this crazy when you look at facts. Their product line has never looked as good compared to Canon's. Most of the gaps have been closed lenswise, most of their recent lenses are superior, they have better high end bodies in APS and action class, the D810 remains the best all round body 2 years after its release,...

Yet, few people seem to consider that Canon is in trouble.

Go figure.

If Nikon is in difficulty, Canon is IMHO in even more difficulty. The truth being that they both are but not quite as much as those "rumors" are telling us.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not their lineup...it's their sales that is hurting.
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chez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #110 on: November 08, 2016, 09:54:13 am »

Well, that one was short-lived; the Board has decided they will go ahead with the cuts:

Notice of Restructuring

Definitely a sign of problems.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #111 on: November 08, 2016, 10:00:03 am »

Well, that one was short-lived; the Board has decided they will go ahead with the cuts:

Notice of Restructuring

Maybe there is a difference between "lay off" and "voluntary retirement"? Joking aside, this is bad news for the industry as a whole. I noticed that the strategy moving forward, in various divisions, is focusing on "value adding" and increasing profits. This is what Sony have been doing, focusing in higher profit margin products, like 3000 Euros cameras and lenses.

The bottom tier and mid tier segments of the market are flooded, competition is fierce, so no profit to be made there. Notice also how Sigma have embarked in the Art series of lenses, higher quality, higher price, higher profit segment.

The thing is, it will be a short lived bubble, as the higher cost segment is crowded already, or close to being so.

chez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #112 on: November 08, 2016, 10:21:54 am »

Maybe there is a difference between "lay off" and "voluntary retirement"? Joking aside, this is bad news for the industry as a whole. I noticed that the strategy moving forward, in various divisions, is focusing on "value adding" and increasing profits. This is what Sony have been doing, focusing in higher profit margin products, like 3000 Euros cameras and lenses.

The bottom tier and mid tier segments of the market are flooded, competition is fierce, so no profit to be made there. Notice also how Sigma have embarked in the Art series of lenses, higher quality, higher price, higher profit segment.

The thing is, it will be a short lived bubble, as the higher cost segment is crowded already, or close to being so.

Yes, it was the lower priced market that drove revenues and since that market has disappeared, we'll soon be seeing a shakeup in this industry. The high end cannot sustain all the camera manufactures we have today.
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #113 on: November 08, 2016, 03:07:26 pm »

Yes it can - just not in stills cameras alone. And the low end is hardly dead - just low-end stills cameras at a premium price.

The money's in the sensor business, not the dedicated stills camera business. At the high end, robots need eyes. Everything from intelligent security systems, to medical equipment, to driverless cars and drones. Many things need multiple sensors. More demanding applications  need higher resolution, greater sensitivity and higher frame rates - features in common with high-end sensors. Intelligent recognition systems have a great deal in common with camera features such as eye focus and facial recognition. Making dedicated cameras is a part of that larger business.

At the lower end, almost every device these days has some sort of camera in it. Sony's selling more phone and computer camera sensors than Canon or Nikon ever did with dedicated low-end cameras.

Canon and Sony have nothing to fear, and everything to gain, from the decline of the dedicated industry and the integration of photography equipment into the wider electronics market. It's only Nikon that has everything to lose, being a company that does little other than make cameras (and some non-digitally-integrated optical equipment) using other people's sensors. Leica can probably hang on as a niche maker of a luxury, almost fashion-like product (a bit like Gucci or Rolex), but theirs is a much smaller and less competitive turf to defend.

Nikon's best bet is probably to return to its roots as an optics company and concentrate on providing lenses for all sorts of camera and other optical systems, as a competitor to Carl-Zeiss. Like the sensor business, that's a large, and expanding, area, and one in which Nikon has expertise and manufacturing  capability. An expanded and dedicated lens and optics company, supplying products to many manufacturers and compatible with many product lines, has a much better chance of surviving independently than a Nikon which does a bit of everything and only makes lenses for its own equipment.

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kers

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 2016, 07:17:00 am »

'restructuring' will also shake up their plans for the future.

I think and hope we will see some 'new' type of camera from them - hopefully a Sony AR kind of camera with a very nice EVF.
But maybe Sony and Nikon have a deal about Sony making sensors for Nikon and then Nikon not making a kind of AR...
I cannot understand otherwise why they still did not make such a thing.

I think Nikon makes and always has made fantastic cameras- solid performers day in day out.
My d810 is such a device. Never needed a backup camera. And if i need one they lend me one.
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Pieter Kers
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #115 on: November 21, 2016, 02:39:26 am »

The new 70-200 f2.8 E FL is an impressive lens too. I am still learning how to tap in its potential but I have sold my 70-200 f4.

There is a crazy thread at Fred Miranda with a photographer sending his 70-200 f2.8E back because it is too good... not enough flare.

Cheers,
Bernard

« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 08:58:47 am by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2016, 05:15:07 pm »

I had the chance to start using the new 70-200 f2.8 E, very impressed.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bo_Dez

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #118 on: November 26, 2016, 11:19:18 am »

Just hurry up and release the D810 successor already!  ::)
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shadowblade

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Re: Nikon in difficulty?
« Reply #119 on: November 26, 2016, 07:16:09 pm »

The quality of one or two products has very little bearing on the health of a company as a whole.

Structurally and in terms of industry position, Nikon is in a precarious situation. All it takes is one or two things to not go their way, or their competitors to make moves against them, and they'd be in big trouble.
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