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Author Topic: Canon 5D Mk4 announced  (Read 26893 times)

shadowblade

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #100 on: September 17, 2016, 07:09:41 am »

I'd find a full-frame successor to the D810, with D7200 pixels, irresistible, even at a higher price than the current D810.

The pixel count of such a camera would be 54mp, and its  DR noticeably better than the current D810, as you mention, Bernard.  4k video with the facility to extract single frames in RAW, would  be an attractive bonus. I'd be willing to pay extra for that also.

When one compares the 5D4 with the D7200 at the pixel level, on DXOMark graphs, the DR advantages of the 5D4 at high ISO are even less, and the DR advantages of the D7200 at base ISO are even greater than one full stop.

Cheers!

I'd like it in a Sony A7 body, or in a 70-80MP version for the A9 (after all, Sony owns Toshiba's imaging division). Nikon's long flange distance is rather crippling when it comes to lens selection - it can't really mount any lens that's not specifically made for the Nikon mount (apart from medium-format lenses, which don't tend to be that sharp on the smaller format).
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Ray

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #101 on: September 17, 2016, 06:59:24 pm »

I'd like it in a Sony A7 body, or in a 70-80MP version for the A9 (after all, Sony owns Toshiba's imaging division). Nikon's long flange distance is rather crippling when it comes to lens selection - it can't really mount any lens that's not specifically made for the Nikon mount (apart from medium-format lenses, which don't tend to be that sharp on the smaller format).

Hi,
All my lenses are either Canon or Nikkor. They cover the full range I want, from 14mm to 400mm, and include a selection of primes, zooms and Tilt-Shifts. I don't want the expense of buying yet more lenses, but it makes sense to get the most out of my existing lenses, and using a body with a high megapixel sensor does that.

When the Sony A7R2 was released, that seemed like an ideal solution for me, until I read of all the trouble people were having with their adapters that might work reasonably well with certain models of lens but not with others. I'm convinced that using lenses designed for the body is the best and most hassle-free approach.

Adapters also add to the weight of the system, offsetting any advantage of a lighter body, and introduce more complexities when changing lenses that require different adapters.
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scooby70

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2016, 08:42:26 pm »

I hope that adapters are in their infancy and that in coming years they'll be much better. If this happens it could herald a real and significant change.

I only have three AF lenses for my A7 and everything else is covered by manual lenses via Novoflex adapters.
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2016, 09:39:01 pm »

Hi,
All my lenses are either Canon or Nikkor. They cover the full range I want, from 14mm to 400mm, and include a selection of primes, zooms and Tilt-Shifts. I don't want the expense of buying yet more lenses, but it makes sense to get the most out of my existing lenses, and using a body with a high megapixel sensor does that.

When the Sony A7R2 was released, that seemed like an ideal solution for me, until I read of all the trouble people were having with their adapters that might work reasonably well with certain models of lens but not with others. I'm convinced that using lenses designed for the body is the best and most hassle-free approach.

Adapters also add to the weight of the system, offsetting any advantage of a lighter body, and introduce more complexities when changing lenses that require different adapters.

So, adapters aren't perfect. With a Nikon body with a long flange distance, you don't even have the option of using one. You're stuck with whatever they decide to release in a native Nikon mount, and are carrying the additional weight whether you're using an adapter at the time or not.

To me, that's like complaining that cars need roads, so we'll just stick with horses.
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Ray

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2016, 07:06:17 am »

So, adapters aren't perfect. With a Nikon body with a long flange distance, you don't even have the option of using one. You're stuck with whatever they decide to release in a native Nikon mount, and are carrying the additional weight whether you're using an adapter at the time or not.

To me, that's like complaining that cars need roads, so we'll just stick with horses.

I'm not stuck with whatever Nikon releases. I have a number of Canon lenses and bodies. Whenever Canon releases a new body that has some significant advantage (from my perspective) over the D7200 or D810, I'll buy it.

The 5DSR and the 5D4 are of great interest to me, and I have considered their merits, but they are not quite there, from my perspective.

However, if money were no object, I'd probably buy them. Okay?  ;)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2016, 04:25:42 am »

Most of us could afford a 5DMkIV any time we want. The question is what value it would deliver over the gear we already own?

What I find a pity is that it almost looks like Canon isn't targeting any longer people asking themselves this question. They appear to be focusing on delivering incremental value to the people already invested in their system, and sure enough they do, but I don't see anything in the way they spec their camera revealing an ambition to gain marketshare.

Am I the only one feeling this way?

Cheers,
Bernard

Update: just read this M5 related rant at DPreview: https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/4495586328/the-canon-eos-m5-is-a-great-mirrorless-camera-and-a-big-disappointment
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 08:55:07 am by BernardLanguillier »
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shadowblade

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2016, 05:14:12 am »

I'm not stuck with whatever Nikon releases. I have a number of Canon lenses and bodies. Whenever Canon releases a new body that has some significant advantage (from my perspective) over the D7200 or D810, I'll buy it.

The 5DSR and the 5D4 are of great interest to me, and I have considered their merits, but they are not quite there, from my perspective.

However, if money were no object, I'd probably buy them. Okay?  ;)

Well, you're stuck with Nikon lenses on the D810, and Canon sensors for the Canon lenses. Or you could put the Canon lenses in front of an A7r2 and get the advantages of a top-tier sensor with a wider lens selection.
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one iota

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2016, 06:10:38 am »

Most of us could afford a 5DMkIV any time we want. The question is what value it would deliver over the gear we already own?

What I find a pity is that it almost looks like Canon isn't targeting any longer people asking themselves this question. They appear to be focusing on delivering incremental value to the people already invested in their system, and sure enough they do, but I don't see anything in the way they spec their camera revealing an ambition to gain marketshare.

Am I the only one feeling this way?

Cheers,
Bernard

So what is the market to be shared? I don't know. I'll leave that to Canon and others to guess/divine. Is it the photojournalist and wedding market?....not challenging technically (very challenging in other ways), demanding of reliability and predictability of hardware and ease of use and workflow. So maybe Canon is selling to those whose equipment shutter counts are getting up and looking for a replacement where an incremental improvement is a bonus. The 5D IV costs the same as the mark III did (ignoring inflation). It uses the same lenses. It uses the same batteries.

Boring for us but earning for them: Canikon and Client alike.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 06:40:06 am by one iota »
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Mahn England

Ray

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2016, 06:11:43 pm »

Well, you're stuck with Nikon lenses on the D810, and Canon sensors for the Canon lenses. Or you could put the Canon lenses in front of an A7r2 and get the advantages of a top-tier sensor with a wider lens selection.

I know I could. It was the disadvantages that put me off, that is, imperfect, malfunctioning adapters which gave me the impression there would be too much stuffing around.

I also prefer optical viewfinders.
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NancyP

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2016, 08:45:58 pm »

There are always people looking to update cameras every few years, or move from Rebels to high end crop (7D2) or full frame camera. I can't imagine that a 5D3 owner would need to go out and get the 5D4 unless they are desperate for some of the incremental improvement.
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scyth

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #110 on: September 20, 2016, 02:25:42 pm »

I can't imagine that a 5D3 owner would need to go out and get the 5D4 unless they are desperate for some of the incremental improvement.

but 5DIV is not "incremental" improvement technically... it might be an incremental improvement from photographer's own abilities (to use camera) standpoint
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Ray

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #111 on: September 20, 2016, 09:17:55 pm »

There are always people looking to update cameras every few years, or move from Rebels to high end crop (7D2) or full frame camera. I can't imagine that a 5D3 owner would need to go out and get the 5D4 unless they are desperate for some of the incremental improvement.

Have you compared the DXOMark results for the 5D4, Nancy? The improvements of the 5D4 over the 5D3 are definitely more than incremental with respect to certain parameters that some of us consider important.

Whilst the increase in pixel count of the 5D4 sensor might be considered an incremental improvement (31mp from 23mp), 4k video is double the resolution of standard HD. That's a bit more than incremental, wouldn't you say?  ;)

Okay! So maybe you are not interested in video. What about dynamic range? Whilst the maximum DR of the 5D4 at base ISO is not quite up to the standard of the Nikon D810, it's a hell of a lot better than the DR of the 5D3.

According to those reliable DXO graphs, the 5D4 has a whopping 1.76 EV greater DR at base ISO, than the 5D3. Even at ISO 800, the DR of the 5D4 is one full stop greater. You don't think that's just incremental, do you?  ;)

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #112 on: September 20, 2016, 11:02:27 pm »

On the other hand so many 5D3 users have been claiming for such a long time that DR does't matter that they may really believe it by now. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

shadowblade

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Re: Canon 5D Mk4 announced
« Reply #113 on: September 21, 2016, 01:31:05 am »

Bear in mind that the 5D4 is not meant to be a high-resolution, base-ISO camera like the 5D2 was, or the D810 and A7r2 are. With the arrival of the 5Ds, that burden's been take off the 5D4. Rather, it is a general-purpose body most suited to event and wedding photographers, who often shoot at higher ISOs (but also sometimes at base ISO with flash or in sunlight), who may shoot a bit of video, need a higher frame rate, etc. The sort of photographer who might use a D750, or, in earlier days, a D700.

Viewed in that light, the 30MP resolution is actually a pretty large jump in resolution from 22MP and the DR is competitive, if not ground-breaking or best-in-class for landscape photographers. For wedding or event use, it certainly looks like it'll beat anything else on the market at the moment, with the possible exception of the D810 (and only if your style is more set shots rather than spontaneous shots). It remains to be seen what Nikon brings out in the D750 and D810 replacements, and how Sony's A9 handles in event photography (sports and fast action are probably a bridge too far at the moment, but events and weddings are an obvious first target in Sony's move from digital back to full-fledged camera system). In any case, it seems likely that the 5D4 will beat the A9 and D810 replacement price-wise, at least.

Really, it's the 5Ds that's the disappointment, not the 5D4. If they made a 50MP sensor with their new, on-chip ADC technology, it'd probably hit the 14-stop DR mark (by DXO's metric, which uses a 1:1 SNR as the baseline). But, being Canon's last sensor based on their old technology, it's essentially crippled as a landscape camera. It holds the resolution advantage (just), but probably not for much longer - Sony's next-generation high-resolution sensor seems almost certain to beat it by 20MP or so, and may even hit the 15-16 stop DR range (possibly with a new RAW format), although the earthquake probably set them back by six months or so. I wouldn't expect the 5Ds to hold to the usual 3- to 4-year product cycle, but, Canon being Canon, anything could happen.
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