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Author Topic: To post or not to post  (Read 11706 times)

Rob C

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To post or not to post
« on: July 04, 2016, 06:34:16 am »

Complaints have been aired recently about the fact that some non-professional MF photographers, or even non-MF photographers, have been posting on threads some would like to see kept for pros only.

I can fully understand the sentiment, one of the reason accounting for my own departure, years ago, from the BJP Forum as was. But there's a diffence: the BJP magazine used to sell itself as the voice of the professional, and certainly, for many years, only pros seemed to care enough about it to buy it, not least for its equipment reviews (excellent) and its sits. vac. columns that gradually became thinner and thinner.  As a magazine, it was pretty dry, and focussed on the pro life. And that's why we bought it. As time progressed, there entered into play a sort of editorial change, with undue interest being focussed on 'students' and their accidental exposures made when loading film; a dilution of the professional concept, a fishing for new innocents.

Then came the Internet and the BJP website, where the forum was inevitably open to the world and its best-hidden secrets, some of whom now flooded the space with nonsense and, yes, abuse, the likes of which LuLa has never seen. Realising there was no control ever going to be implemented, simply out of the need to keep sales alive and, hopefully, grow within a wider maket as the pro one steadily shrank, I saw the pointlessness of keeping my voice there, so I voted with my mouse.

Now, LuLa has a different rôle to play than did the BJP, not least because it began life from the efforts of a photographic visionary, a man who not only wrote the words well, but also knew about walking the walk. And commerce was clearly not reason number one for existing. Thank you for your efforts and for your images, Michael. We all owe you.

Therefore, is it realistic to expect LuLa to provide key-entry sections today, so soon after the culture shock of the change from free to subscription? In the original scenario, the only question affecting the viewer was whether the twelve bucks represented or did not represent value to that person. Some issues occurred about copyright concerns, but I think they were resolved. Were Lula, today, to introduce more areas still closed to some viewers, I think it would not be seen in quite the same easy manner: you mean, one would pay, but still be barred access to the whole place? Really? Anybody about to eat that one?

In essence, if anyone thinks that a website open to all levels of photographer is not for him, then the challenge, surely, must be for him to start his own professionally exclusive website, not change somebody else's.

Rob C

eronald

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2016, 07:12:04 am »

Rob,

 Conversations  about precise tech subjects - eg. shimming a ground glass, or yaw on the Arca, are proceeding on this forum with a focused subcommittee of participants.

 We may lose some guys who don't like this forum by keeping it open to random discussions and random participants, but I think everybody gains from this.

 BTW, I got on well in person with Michael; he wasn't a "pro" photographer in any way, he explained to me, he had some sort of internet or telecom company and got it onto the stock exchange and took the money and ran. So historically this is not a forum which was founded for or by "working pros" like BJP.

Edmund
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stamper

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2016, 07:22:12 am »

Rob,

 Conversations  about precise tech subjects - eg. shimming a ground glass, or yaw on the Arca, are proceeding on this forum with a focused subcommittee of participants.

 We may lose some guys who don't like this forum by keeping it open to random discussions and random participants, but I think everybody gains from this.

 BTW, I got on well in person with Michael; he wasn't a "pro" photographer in any way, he explained to me, he had some sort of internet or telecom company and got it onto the stock exchange and took the money and ran. So historically this is not a forum which was founded for or by "working pros" like BJP.

Edmund


A year or so back Michael listed every type of photography he had dabbled in. The only one he hadn't was wedding photography. Surely he got paid for some of the other types he had dabbled in which meant he was a professional? If he wasn't a professional then would you class him as an amateur? I think NOT.

Rob C

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2016, 08:44:35 am »

eronald; stamper

If memory serves, Michael spent a lor of time doing photojournalism.

Keith,

Within the context of LuLa I am as status-agnostic as you are. I am writing in response to a post by somebody else stating that he was closing his account with Lula.

It doesn't matter to me if he does or does not; what matters to me is that we don't run throught the same shit that happened in BJP if we can avoid it. You were there, you know what happened, and how the replacement panned out, too.

I put it as a separate thread because in the original thread it would have vanished, and I think it's more important to be aware, than that. Maybe if Brexit had been better aired...

Rob

Paul2660

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2016, 09:14:14 am »

Rob,

Thanks for your post. 

I have been a member of this site for many years, and have learned quite a bit from other members who were willing to share their knowledge of a particular subject.  Hopefully someone has gained some information from my posts over the years.

I am 58 years old, and have been a professional photographer, for the past 12 years, and before a photographer most of my life.  My business is small and localized, but I feel that many of the aspects of a small business at least in photography and printing are the same as a large shop. 

What I have seen on this site in the past few years is a change, and a change towards a negative nature.  So many folks on this site seem to respond to a post as if they actually made the Nikon, Canon, Phase One, (many others) camera.  I understand they have a personal investment in the product due to the fact it was purchased, most of  the same companies have no knowledge of these folks.  Sure there are some lucky few that are "sponsored" by a company and I wish them the best.  I also expect them to respond in a positive way toward any product that they are representing.  It still offers no reason to post such a negative response that seemingly calls another person out, just like in the old west days (I am in the US).  It's just not worth it, at least to me. What is gained by this type of post? 

I find the method that many use on this site, of taking a post and breaking it down into individual sentences and quoting each sentence with a response to be rude, sorry just me.  No problem with responding to a persons post with your own opinion but to take the time to break out each sentence to me is just not necessary, is hard to read, and takes up an inordinate amount of space on a page, and again is pain rude.  I don't think anyone on this site, beside a very few have the real qualifications to do that.  I also feel that is a direct form of intimidation as many folks more than likely do not have the html skills to do this type of response, or for that matter have the time to do, as they are more focused on attempting to run a business.

The other issue is just the nature of the internet, the impartiality that it allows.  I feel that many of the posts written on this site, would not be said, if you were looking at that same person in the face.  But that is the nature of the internet, and one it's greatest failings. 

I saw Ken R's post yesterday, and said to myself, there goes another great poster, a photographer who has shared a lot of his personal techniques for both studio and landscape work.  I hope Ken reconsiders and comes back to share with this site again. 

At the same time, I don't feel this site should be only for "professionals" as that word in photography is a bit hard define again due to the nature of the internet and how it has totally changed the business model for photography, and the delivery of photographic work both printed and digital.  A forum should be a friendly place, where someone can openly ask a question about a product or technique and in turn they should receive a positive answer that will help them move forward in their photographic quest. 

Instead many of the posts here break down into personal attacks either because a person owns a particular camera brand or they happen to photograph in a certain style. 

The internet is open for anyone to create their own web page and on that blog or site they should have the freedom to write in any fashion they choose, but on a public site such as this one, I do hope that folks can pass up some of the negative natured comments some of which recently have been disturbing to me also.  If you have a problem with a poster, use a PM, take it off line or email a moderator. 

LuLa is a great site and many folks here when posting should take a minute and remember Michael and his style of writing and try to keep the forum heading in a positive direction. 

Paul Caldwell
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2016, 09:39:02 am »

It's a mix of different things... Some like to tease, others like to keep things on subject, some only care about imaging, others like to discuss technical aspects also/more, some have a great sense of humor and can't think at the first degree while others like to call a cat a cat, some live a stressful life others sip their morning coffee while looking at the sea, some only post a night after too many drinks, others post at work when they find a few minutes btwn meetings,...

There are differences of age, culture, financial resources, professional background, photographic talent, time spent taking pictures, relationship with equipment, some wouldn't mind photographing with a square box as long as DR is great, others like the sound of theit shutter when it clicks and that plays a huge role in their enjoyement of photography, some carve images with minute lighting set ups, others capture the world around them,...

Some don't care about brands, format,... and just look at results, others associate themselves with a certain type of equipment, some care about how good what they have is relative to their needs, others want to own the best... even when it isn't any longer.

You can look at these differences as an asset or as an issue.

I prefer to look at them as an asset from which I learn things.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 09:54:48 am by BernardLanguillier »
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torger

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2016, 10:14:58 am »

You don't need to be professional, which I consider is to make your living 100% from photography, to be a serious photographer. I take my own photography quite seriously and I have a clear artistic vision with it, but I don't intend it to finance my living. I don't want that pressure on me as that would hurt my artistic integrity, and besides I like my engineering work too and it makes good money (then I don't count my software related to photography ;) ).

But of course as a landscape photographer I don't have any deep understanding of a studio professional's workflow needs, but even within professional photography there are large differences, an architecture photographer is not having the same challenges as a wedding photographer. A hobbyist people photographer may know more about wedding photography than a professional architecture photographer.

I think the real "problem" here is still the old thing that MFD is very expensive and the actual image quality advantage isn't that meaningful to 95% of all real photography and people takes sides and there's a never-ending debate of why using MFD gear or not in this situation. Which I personally don't mind if it's discussed in a civilized manner. Making a forum like this closed for anyone that doesn't make their living using solely MFD gear this "problem" would largely disappear, but well most activity would disappear too.
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synn

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2016, 11:16:30 am »

The problems in LuLa have nothing to do with professional vs non professional.
It has simply to do with the fact that people with little or no experience in medium format photography insist on being the most vocal here, having opinions in every topic, derailing every discussion there is to suit their personal agenda. Every thread on page 3 onwards looks something like this.

- theodoros comes in and complaints that the camera does not do multishot. Throws random insults at PhaseOne in case the thread had nothing to do with them. Throws not so random insults in case it does.

- yunli song comes in and decrees that all CCD backs are junk that should be crushed and compacted.

- alter ego comes in and blesses us with his infinite knowledge without having touched anything medium format once in his life.

- Edmund comes in and makes some quip that I am sure sounded really funny in his head, complaints about the product in question even though the last time he had anything to do with medium format digital was a decade ago, switches smoothly to some nostalgic bit about how things were "back in the day" when others call him out on his BS.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Tell me which thread in recent times has not de evolved into some combination of the above. Now look at the body of work (or lack there of) that the above 4 gentlemen have presented over the years.

Now you will see what the problem is.
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razrblck

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2016, 11:43:54 am »

I've learned quite a lot thanks to this forum and the people here.

I get inspired all the time from the professional and non professional images threads.

Besides, what gear you have and if you are or not a working professional doesn't make your opinion more important nor your knowledge more extensive and accurate. I already have a medium format camera (film only, but this forum is for both film and digital), and I would just need to register myself as a working professional. Will I become an expert overnight? Nope. Will I miss some of the contributors that would not fit in those criteria? Most probably yes.
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torger

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2016, 12:28:52 pm »

The problems in LuLa have nothing to do with professional vs non professional.
It has simply to do with the fact that people with little or no experience in medium format photography insist on being the most vocal here, having opinions in every topic, derailing every discussion there is to suit their personal agenda. Every thread on page 3 onwards looks something like this.

- theodoros comes in and complaints that the camera does not do multishot. Throws random insults at PhaseOne in case the thread had nothing to do with them. Throws not so random insults in case it does.

- yunli song comes in and decrees that all CCD backs are junk that should be crushed and compacted.

- alter ego comes in and blesses us with his infinite knowledge without having touched anything medium format once in his life.

- Edmund comes in and makes some quip that I am sure sounded really funny in his head, complaints about the product in question even though the last time he had anything to do with medium format digital was a decade ago, switches smoothly to some nostalgic bit about how things were "back in the day" when others call him out on his BS.

Rinse, lather, repeat.

Tell me which thread in recent times has not de evolved into some combination of the above. Now look at the body of work (or lack there of) that the above 4 gentlemen have presented over the years.

Now you will see what the problem is.

I can mentioned a few more of us that contribute to repetitive patterns -- and that includes both you and me, but the thread subjects are usually repetitive too. It's the nature of camera technology, it's only that many pieces on a camera. And I don't really see what relevance "body of work" has in relation to for example knowing things about electronics. We also need to consider that not all people here express themselves natively in English, meaning that some come across harsher or more provocative than they really mean to. I don't think that reacting to that is constructive.

A professional body of work in some specific genre has relevance in terms of understanding the business realities and what functions that are actually needed in that specific genre. It doesn't necessarily give you expertise in specific questions about electronics, for example details about long exposure capability. Those you mention have all individually contributed with detailed knowledge new to me, and I value that although I don't agree with all their opinions about hardware or the importance of various features.

Look at Yunli's body of work and you see that high dynamic range and long exposure is very important aspects to him, so naturally the new CMOS is a killer. Look at my work and you see it's not that important to me, instead I have a hard time considering a camera without rich movements. We have different favorites and different reasons for them.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2016, 01:00:03 pm »

Hi Rob,

Thanks for posting.

My take is that LuLa has always been a good source of information. Also, I would say that the discussions used to be both wide and quite tolerant. The moderators tend to try to keep the discussions civilised bit, but avoid interfering to much.

A coin usually has two sides. I would say that any discussion should be open to both sides.  As the late Michael Reichmann said, "Times are changing". Photography has gone trough many transitions, like the P45 generation of sensors challenging 4"x5" film: https://luminous-landscape.com/4x5-film-vs-digital/

Or for that matter Michael Reichmann's accidental comparison of the P45+ and the Canon G10: https://luminous-landscape.com/kidding/

Sharing information is almost always a good thing. Sharing proper information is an even better thing. LuLa has always been good at sharing proper information. Michael Reichmann not only shared web size images but also actual pixel crops and raw images.

Now, there are always individuals who have little respect for views that depart from those of their own. There are some individuals who love to make skeptical or even sarcastic remarks.

LuLa has always ben toolerant about this, unless posters used a foul language.

If you post on any forum, it may be that you view is contested. That is the nature of this forum and it is also the nature of a free discussion.

Best regards
Erik




Complaints have been aired recently about the fact that some non-professional MF photographers, or even non-MF photographers, have been posting on threads some would like to see kept for pros only.

I can fully understand the sentiment, one of the reason accounting for my own departure, years ago, from the BJP Forum as was. But there's a diffence: the BJP magazine used to sell itself as the voice of the professional, and certainly, for many years, only pros seemed to care enough about it to buy it, not least for its equipment reviews (excellent) and its sits. vac. columns that gradually became thinner and thinner.  As a magazine, it was pretty dry, and focussed on the pro life. And that's why we bought it. As time progressed, there entered into play a sort of editorial change, with undue interest being focussed on 'students' and their accidental exposures made when loading film; a dilution of the professional concept, a fishing for new innocents.

Then came the Internet and the BJP website, where the forum was inevitably open to the world and its best-hidden secrets, some of whom now flooded the space with nonsense and, yes, abuse, the likes of which LuLa has never seen. Realising there was no control ever going to be implemented, simply out of the need to keep sales alive and, hopefully, grow within a wider maket as the pro one steadily shrank, I saw the pointlessness of keeping my voice there, so I voted with my mouse.

Now, LuLa has a different rôle to play than did the BJP, not least because it began life from the efforts of a photographic visionary, a man who not only wrote the words well, but also knew about walking the walk. And commerce was clearly not reason number one for existing. Thank you for your efforts and for your images, Michael. We all owe you.

Therefore, is it realistic to expect LuLa to provide key-entry sections today, so soon after the culture shock of the change from free to subscription? In the original scenario, the only question affecting the viewer was whether the twelve bucks represented or did not represent value to that person. Some issues occurred about copyright concerns, but I think they were resolved. Were Lula, today, to introduce more areas still closed to some viewers, I think it would not be seen in quite the same easy manner: you mean, one would pay, but still be barred access to the whole place? Really? Anybody about to eat that one?

In essence, if anyone thinks that a website open to all levels of photographer is not for him, then the challenge, surely, must be for him to start his own professionally exclusive website, not change somebody else's.

Rob C
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 03:27:33 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2016, 01:53:16 pm »

It's a mix of different things... Some like to tease, others like to keep things on subject, some only care about imaging, others like to discuss technical aspects also/more, some have a great sense of humor and can't think at the first degree while others like to call a cat a cat, some live a stressful life others sip their morning coffee while looking at the sea, some only post a night after too many drinks, others post at work when they find a few minutes btwn meetings,...

There are differences of age, culture, financial resources, professional background, photographic talent, time spent taking pictures, relationship with equipment, some wouldn't mind photographing with a square box as long as DR is great, others like the sound of theit shutter when it clicks and that plays a huge role in their enjoyement of photography, some carve images with minute lighting set ups, others capture the world around them,...

Some don't care about brands, format,... and just look at results, others associate themselves with a certain type of equipment, some care about how good what they have is relative to their needs, others want to own the best... even when it isn't any longer.

You can look at these differences as an asset or as an issue.

I prefer to look at them as an asset from which I learn things.

Cheers,
Bernard

+1

P.S. See, Bernard, there ARE instances where we agree 100%  :)

Christopher Sanderson

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2016, 03:51:18 pm »

FWIW

1. If you have a problem with someone, Use the Ignore feature

2. If you still have a problem, report the offender to a Moderator.

This report isn't sneaking or snitching, it simply alerts me to a potential problem which I will look at. I do not have the time or inclination to read everything, therefore the Report to Moderator may be the first I hear of a possible problem.
I do use the Ban feature and have done so recently with Theodoros & AlterEgo who can log on but can no longer post

ErikKaffehr

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2016, 04:07:45 pm »

Hi Chris,

Just to say, I would make the point that AlterEgo is in all probability a very knowledgeable guy.

Best regards
Erik


FWIW

1. If you have a problem with someone, Use the Ignore feature

2. If you still have a problem, report the offender to a Moderator.

This report isn't sneaking or snitching, it simply alerts me to a potential problem which I will look at. I do not have the time or inclination to read everything, therefore the Report to Moderator may be the first I hear of a possible problem.
I do use the Ban feature and have done so recently with Theodoros & AlterEgo who can log on but can no longer post
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Christopher Sanderson

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2016, 04:32:36 pm »

Just to say, I would make the point that AlterEgo is in all probability a very knowledgeable guy.
Duly noted - thanks!

siddhaarta

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2016, 06:30:01 pm »

FWIW

1. If you have a problem with someone, Use the Ignore feature

2. If you still have a problem, report the offender to a Moderator.

This report isn't sneaking or snitching, it simply alerts me to a potential problem which I will look at. I do not have the time or inclination to read everything, therefore the Report to Moderator may be the first I hear of a possible problem.
I do use the Ban feature and have done so recently with Theodoros & AlterEgo who can log on but can no longer post

That is very sad to hear, I appreciated the contributions of Theodorus (even his frequent provocations ). I hope, bans in minor cases are temporary.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 06:50:38 pm by siddhaarta »
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siddhaarta

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 06:46:46 pm »

It's a mix of different things... Some like to tease, others like to keep things on subject, some only care about imaging, others like to discuss technical aspects also/more, some have a great sense of humor and can't think at the first degree while others like to call a cat a cat, some live a stressful life others sip their morning coffee while looking at the sea, some only post a night after too many drinks, others post at work when they find a few minutes btwn meetings,...

There are differences of age, culture, financial resources, professional background, photographic talent, time spent taking pictures, relationship with equipment, some wouldn't mind photographing with a square box as long as DR is great, others like the sound of theit shutter when it clicks and that plays a huge role in their enjoyement of photography, some carve images with minute lighting set ups, others capture the world around them,...

Some don't care about brands, format,... and just look at results, others associate themselves with a certain type of equipment, some care about how good what they have is relative to their needs, others want to own the best... even when it isn't any longer.

You can look at these differences as an asset or as an issue.

I prefer to look at them as an asset from which I learn things.

Cheers,
Bernard

Couldn't have expressed it better. I think the only limit should be personal insults which some members here obviously love … this is quite deterrent/ugly for a Newbie like me
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 06:53:32 pm by siddhaarta »
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NickT

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 06:52:57 pm »

This forum has never been "professionals only" what it has been is for people who use medium format. The constant re-railing of threads into rants or discussion to technical minute is frustrating but such are forums.

What really ruins it for me are personal attacks on other members. This was an area in which Theodorus really excelled and I am glad he is not here.
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BobShaw

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 07:31:38 pm »

This forum has never been "professionals only" what it has been is for people who use medium format.
+1
(or at least would like to learn about MF)

OK, probably a dumb question, but I've got to ask.
Does the "Ignore Feature" exist or is that a joke?
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: To post or not to post
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 07:35:23 pm »

+1
(or at least would like to learn about MF)

OK, probably a dumb question, but I've got to ask.
Does the "Ignore Feature" exist or is that a joke?
Click on Profile at the top of the page and you will find your Buddies/Ignore list
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