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Author Topic: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88  (Read 15530 times)

Josh-H

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2016, 12:03:21 am »

Oh! I see. That wasn't clear in his post. My fault.

Sorry, I just quoted DXO verbatim. Didn't mean to cause confusion....
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2016, 06:05:41 am »

I just read the Chasseur d'Image review of the 1DxII. Very positive overall, they praise the low ISO dynamic range and many other aspects as well.

On the other hand they give the D5 a one stop advantage at ISO 12,800-25,600 in jpg thanks to better detail retention. The 1DxII jpg engine appears to be performing more NR at those ISO which explains the lower noise level, but at the cost of more smearing. Raw high ISO performance is said to be very similar.

Cheers,
Bernard

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2016, 09:24:21 am »

I just read the Chasseur d'Image review of the 1DxII. Very positive overall, they praise the low ISO dynamic range and many other aspects as well.

On the other hand they give the D5 a one stop advantage at ISO 12,800-25,600 in jpg thanks to better detail retention. The 1DxII jpg engine appears to be performing more NR at those ISO which explains the lower noise level, but at the cost of more smearing. Raw high ISO performance is said to be very similar.

Cheers,
Bernard

Similar review from another French magazine, "Réponses Photo", they mention that the sensor/imaging engine is really good. One of the few downsides is the not-so-comfortable grip of the camera, which they find a bit shallow.

Josh-H

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2016, 10:25:20 pm »

Quote
On the other hand they give the D5 a one stop advantage at ISO 12,800-25,600 in jpg thanks to better detail retention. The 1DxII jpg engine appears to be performing more NR at those ISO which explains the lower noise level, but at the cost of more smearing. Raw high ISO performance is said to be very similar.

So.. comparing the D5 to the 1DX MKII all they could find better on the D5 was a one stop advantage in jpeg at ISO 12.800 - 25600?

Quote
Similar review from another French magazine, "Réponses Photo", they mention that the sensor/imaging engine is really good. One of the few downsides is the not-so-comfortable grip of the camera, which they find a bit shallow.

This review was down right odd.. I have very big hands and thats one of the great advantages of the Pro series Canons and Nikons for me, the grips are big enough. I cant imagine the size hands someone must have to find a 1DX MKII grip too small!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2016, 04:30:37 am »

So.. comparing the D5 to the 1DX MKII all they could find better on the D5 was a one stop advantage in jpeg at ISO 12.800 - 25600?

Cute!

The only aspects of the performance of the 1DxII that were compared to the D5 in that review were low ISO DR and high ISO image quality.

They didn't compare AF, battery life, exposure accuracy,...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:38:01 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Josh-H

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2016, 04:54:50 am »

Cute!

The only aspects of the performance of the 1DxII that were compared to the D5 in that review were low ISO DR and high ISO image quality.

They didn't compare AF, battery life, exposure accuracy,...

Cheers,
Bernard

Wow... sounds like a really useful review..  :o :o :o
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2016, 05:07:00 am »

Wow... sounds like a really useful review..  :o :o :o

It is a 1DxII review, not a comparaison with the D5.

Cheers,
Bernard

Josh-H

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2016, 05:22:40 am »

It is a 1DxII review, not a comparaison with the D5.

Cheers,
Bernard

But you managed to find and quote the only D5 reference. I should have guessed.  ;D ;D ;D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2016, 09:56:03 am »

But you managed to find and quote the only D5 reference. I should have guessed.  ;D ;D ;D

The 2 references related to image quality, overall in favour of the 1DxII in case you see this as a contest.
- Significant DR gap at low ISO in favor of the Canon,
- Slightly better high ISO for the Nikon (both jpg and raw in fact having re-read their comments).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 04:35:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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ErikKaffehr

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Is it about the ultimate image quality?
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2016, 03:43:22 pm »

Hi,

My take is that what I have seen that it may be that Canon 1DXII and Nikon D5 may not offer the ultimate image quality. Looking at DxO-mark data the low ISO image quality champs are still champs at high ISO.

The 1DX II and D5 kind of cameras may have the frame rates, class leading AF and professional durability.

But, for image quality alone you would probably go with a sensor made by Sony, or with Canon's 5Ds/5DsR.

Best regards
Erik

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Is it about the ultimate image quality?
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2016, 03:53:04 pm »

Hi,

My take is that what I have seen that it may be that Canon 1DXII and Nikon D5 may not offer the ultimate image quality. Looking at DxO-mark data the low ISO image quality champs are still champs at high ISO.

The 1DX II and D5 kind of cameras may have the frame rates, class leading AF and professional durability.

But, for image quality alone you would probably go with a sensor made by Sony, or with Canon's 5Ds/5DsR.

Exactly. For these cameas in their intended usage, AF is an order of magnitude more important than any other metric IMHO.

Now if you try to treat these bodies as all rounders, which they can do pretty well too, then my view is that the 1DxII is dong a slightly better job than the D5.

Companies make design choices and Nikon has positined the D5 a bit more as a specialized tool from what I see. And here again, the difference isn't huge.

What is interesting, from a sensor behavior point of view, I find is that the 1DxII is in a way closer to an improved D4 than to an improved 1DX while the D5 is closer to an improved 1Dx than to a D4. Nikon went for more specialization while Canon went for a more generalst tool.

I'd really like to be able to speak with the ladies who took these decisions and to understand what inputs they were based on.

Cheers,
Bernsrd
« Last Edit: July 02, 2016, 05:16:05 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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hjulenissen

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2016, 07:33:51 am »

That's great news for Canon users. Perhaps DXO testing will be more accepted by Canon enthusiasts just as CMOS seems more acceptable to MF enthusiasts since it became available in MF.  :)

Competition is great for eveyone except for those who can not compete.
Good points.

I am a Canon user, and I would object to any idea that all Canon users have stuck their head in the sand and their fingers in their ears while Canon have lagged behind in the DR departement.

-h
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2016, 09:10:50 am »

So.. comparing the D5 to the 1DX MKII all they could find better on the D5 was a one stop advantage in jpeg at ISO 12.800 - 25600?

This review was down right odd.. I have very big hands and thats one of the great advantages of the Pro series Canons and Nikons for me, the grips are big enough. I cant imagine the size hands someone must have to find a 1DX MKII grip too small!

They did not wrote the grip was too small, that it was just a bit too shallow, in the depth dimension.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2016, 02:28:06 pm »

Hi,

I am pretty sure that modern high resolution cameras like the D810 or the Sony A7rII performs as well as the Nikon D5 or the Canon 1DXII at moderately high ISOs. like 3200. If you need at camera that shoots > 10 FPS, has blindingly fast AF and takes some abuse, than you go for 1DXII or D5, else I would say you are better served by a camera having twice the resolution at half the price.

Best regards
Erik

They did not wrote the grip was too small, that it was just a bit too shallow, in the depth dimension.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2016, 07:49:27 pm »

I am pretty sure that modern high resolution cameras like the D810 or the Sony A7rII performs as well as the Nikon D5 or the Canon 1DXII at moderately high ISOs. like 3200. If you need at camera that shoots > 10 FPS, has blindingly fast AF and takes some abuse, than you go for 1DXII or D5, else I would say you are better served by a camera having twice the resolution at half the price.

Yes, very much so.

As far as AF goes, speed is key, but more important IMHO is the ability to track moving subjects. Pretty much everything you shoot with these bodies in the area where they excel moves fast/in complex patterns.

A young child in a dark living room at night with a single light at 2200K being perhaps the most challenging subject of all.
 
Cheers,
Bernard

John Koerner

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Re: Is it about the ultimate image quality?
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2016, 12:57:38 am »

Companies make design choices and Nikon has positined the D5 a bit more as a specialized tool from what I see. And here again, the difference isn't huge.

I would have to agree that the Canon 1Dx II is the better all-around tool (especially with the 4K) than the D5, with the D5 being the better action/high-ISO tool.

What no one seems to mention, however, is how well the Nikon D500 stacks up, not just to the old 1Dx, but to the new Canon 1Dx2 as well.

If you check out the DxO Mark on the trio, the D500 compares impressively.

The D500 actually has better dynamic range than either version of the 1Dx up to ISO 1000 ... and comparable Dynamic Range to IS0 2000.



Therefore, if the Canon 1Dx II is being favored over the D5 for having "better Base ISO" ... then shouldn't the D500 be favored over the Canon Dx II if that's our yardstick?

Not only that, the D500 has better Tonal Range than *both* FF Pro DSLRs all throughout the ISO spectrum:



It is unprecedented that a crop camera can whip top pro FF DSLRs like this (albeit, the FF cameras have better SNR and color sensitivity).

Now, if you want to talk about image quality, here are some actual photos from the Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II, not just together, but with the Nikon 2x TC III (@ 900mm)


Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II (@ 450mm, no crop)


Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II + Nikon 2x TC III (@ 900mm, no crop)


Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II + Nikon 2x TC III (@ 900mm, no crop)

Now, the above are admittedly still subjects, so let's talk about action shots under challenging conditions. If you think following a full-sized human being on a giant horse (or following a human-sized soccer player out on the field) is tough to do ... try following a finger-sized Pepsis wasp ... furiously scurrying over flower tops ... on a windy day ... and yet this is what I was able to accomplish @ 900mm with 50% crops:


Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II + Nikon 2x TC III (@ 900mm, 50% crop)

Not only was there a challenge of capturing erratic-moving tiny critters, not just doubly-so due to a high-wind, but triply-so because of getting the exposure right due to their extreme-black on top of extreme white flowers.


Nikon D500 + Nikkor 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II + Nikon 2x TC III (@ 900mm, 50% crop)

For an APS-C camera, using a 2x extender (@ 900mm), and then cropping to boot, I am simply thrilled with the results here.

I realize this is slightly off-topic, as we're discussing the "pro" cameras of the Canon 1Dx II the Nikon D5, but make no mistake, the D500 is every bit as "pro" a camera as these two.

The D500 produces comparable image quality, it has both better AF coverage and better AF tracking than the new Canon 1Dx, on top of which don't forget about the 1.5x reach advantage as well.

If you want to see a Matrix Table as to the pros/cons of each, I have made This Matrix as a comparison.

I won't discuss the D500 on here again, but I thought it was worthy of mention to include it here, because it while the D500 falls short to the Canon 1Dx II in certain categories, it actually eclipses the 1Dx II in as many categories as it falls short, and compares very favorably overall.

And don't forget it does all this for $2,000 as opposed to $6,500.

Jack
« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 08:36:49 am by John Koerner »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2016, 08:32:20 pm »

I have just re-read the DxO Mark test of the D5, and I would swear that they have re-done their test.

I don't have evidence of this, but I think I remember that their initial measure gave it a DR of 11.7 stops at base ISO while it now shows at 12.3, which is basically on par with a Canon 5Ds in print (and superior on screen) even at base ISO.

Am I the only one having noticed this?

Cheers,
Bernard

Josh-H

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2016, 12:05:30 am »

Wether its 11.7 or 12.3 I don't think is all that important in the scheme of image making. What is of great importance though is 'if' they have re-done the test and then not provided a reason for doing so, or more importantly for the discrepancy between results then thats an integrity issue.

I have long harboured my doubts about DXO's impartiality, methodology and relevance to actual real world image making. Unfortunately though the wayback internet machine didn't crawl the page before the current page listing so Im not sure there is a way to know for sure...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2016, 12:11:10 am »

Agreed Josh.

Cheers,
Bernard

Zorki5

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Re: For the DXO aficionados..The 1DX MKII scored 88
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2016, 01:21:06 am »

Nitpicking aside, it's nice to see Canon sensors' revival.

This is what Michael wrote on Sony a900 some 7 years ago:

Quote
Unfortunately this excellence is not the case when it comes to sensor noise. This camera’s sensor appears to trade off resolution for noise at higher ISOs, and though ISO 200 is very clean indeed even it isn’t completely noiseless. At ISO 400, one stop higher than the cameras native sensitivity, there is some luminance noise visible in mid-tone areas. <...>

Using standards of 2–3 years ago noise performance at ISO 400 is fine, but not as compared with other lower resolution cameras of today. (The Canon 5D MKII is likely to significantly outperform it based on my evaluation of images from an early pre-production camera...

And who would have thought about what would follow...
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