Brexit

[Manoli]

My head is spinning ...

In the words of a true Brit,  'Gobsmacked' ?

[drmike]

Not quite, but surprised.

[bcooter]

and why 'd she fight unless she was an illegal alien in the first place ?

You have to know the system.   You can follow every rule, pay your taxes, do not break ANY laws or rules, have approval before departure and the papers to prove it and most still have to have legal assistance to navigate the process.

Fight isn't the right word, but you need to be involved in the process to understand it as it's complicated.

Manoli,

We live in the UK some of the time, mostly in LA . . . actually mostly on an airplane as we work everywhere . . . legally and always bring business to a country. 

Our reason in having a London place is to be close to family when we have the opportunity.

It's funny our flat and most of the flats in our building are owned by American investors, some live in the UK some don't.

IMO

BC

[Manoli]

We live in the UK some of the time, mostly in LA . . . actually mostly on an airplane as we work everywhere . . .

Coots,

I know.
I think you meant to address that to 'drmike'

M

[bcooter]

Coots,

I know.
I think you meant to address that to 'drmike'

M

Sorry.  (and the following comment is just general, not directed to anyone)

Anyway I shouldn't comment on Brexit because I have no vote in this, so my apologies. 

I just would love to see the democratic will of the people addressed whatever the country, but everyone seems so polarized it is almost impossible to have a conversation on any topic.

Though on another topic, I love it when we're in London.   It's a great city, very multi cultural, modern and the resources I've met have all been very, very good.   I found a web design company in London that is the best I've ever worked with, even a better price than I was paying in the U.S. when you factor in the speed and accuracy in which they work.

I know why Hollywood uses so many UK resources for grading, editing and design. 

Peace out.

BC

P.S.   Off topic, but I love driving from the right side of our car.   Recently we went to Paris to scout a location and I was kind of worried about driving on the right side of the road from a right hand drive car, but it honestly seemed more natural, than if I was driving from the left seat.   London motorways are not a nice as France, but people here drive very well.

In fact I'm in the process of buying an Italian Aprilia motorcycle, because I work so much I would like to get up early on a Sunday morning and ride through London.  Maybe if I get it right, I can ride through France because the motorways are spectacular.

[Rob C]

Coots,

I think a democratic decision will be accepted, when it's made in accordance with our *democracy*.
Britain is a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament decides.

This court case isn't about overturning a democratic decision, it's about who gets to decide what the *yes/no* choice means: an elected Parliament or an unelected PM and couple of her appointees looking to ride roughshod over the whole process.

M

I just hope Parliament pulls the rug on the nonsense that the vote was.

It, the Go campaign, was conditioned by a pack of lies that were instantly denied, disowned as 'mistakes' the moment the result came in. Boris wrote an article for the Telegraph pleading the case for remaining, two days before he voted to quit; personal political ambitions overruled national interest. It is painfully obvious other than to the wilfully blind, that a weak currency only allows the 'advantage' of exports seeming to be cheaper (thus more competitive) within an ideal world where there is no need for imports and nobody expects ever to travel outwith the prison. The US may be closer to that than any European country ever was. The fact that part of the London stock market is high reflects the fact that most of those top 100 firms are bringing in earnings from abroad, and those, translated into pounds, produce a higher number as the pound gets weaker. That does not make good reading in reality, it just illustrates the low value of the pound, made worse when the realisation arrives that the money being made is being made outside the country. So, where do folks imagine the employment producing the profits actually is? (We did choose Brexit because those unemployed foreigners in our city centres are stealing our jobs, didn't we?)

As Birmingham, Alabama may have made being American uncomfortable, so being British now makes many of us feel. We have been branded as a bunch of xenophobes, rural louts with the intelligence of a country stile, the wit of a rabid bat.

Some speak/dream of striking a great, new Exit trade deal with the rest of Europe: you join a family, live with them for years, suddenly piss in their soup yet you expect them to offer you a coffee and brandy, and a special love during the night? Only in a particular type of the British mind.

We are pissing on Europe, we did piss on both Australia and New Zealand; do some expect those lands to say hey, welcome back, as if they needed us still? We deserted them and their vital industries, why would they care about us now, having long ago made other arrangements, except to welcome the skilled, bright minds always queuing up to go live there to find what is now ever more hard to find at home in the UK?

But, perhaps Parliament will do the really honorable thing, and stop this nonsense at the eleventh hour by taking charge of its real responsibiity which is to the country, not to fellow MPs. Given confrontation with a potential suicide, do you try to talk him down or do you approach and give him a helpful push off the cliff? It's up to you, Parliament, which will you be?

Cuba, Kennedy and the missiles proved that the edge can always be avoided, even at the very last moment. Britain still has time if it has moral guts.

[davidgp]

I just hope Parliament pulls the rug on the nonsense that the vote was.

It, the Go campaign, was conditioned by a pack of lies that were instantly denied, disowned as 'mistakes' the moment the result came in. Boris wrote an article for the Telegraph pleading the case for remaining, two days before he voted to quit; personal political ambitions overruled national interest. It is painfully obvious other than to the wilfully blind, that a weak currency only allows the 'advantage' of exports seeming to be cheaper (thus more competitive) within an ideal world where there is no need for imports and nobody expects ever to travel outwith the prison. The US may be closer to that than any European country ever was. The fact that part of the London stock market is high reflects the fact that most of those top 100 firms are bringing in earnings from abroad, and those, translated into pounds, produce a higher number as the pound gets weaker. That does not make good reading in reality, it just illustrates the low value of the pound, made worse when the realisation arrives that the money being made is being made outside the country. So, where do folks imagine the employment producing the profits actually is? (We did choose Brexit because those unemployed foreigners in our city centres are stealing our jobs, didn't we?)

As Birmingham, Alabama may have made being American uncomfortable, so being British now makes many of us feel. We have been branded as a bunch of xenophobes, rural louts with the intelligence of a country stile, the wit of a rabid bat.

Some speak/dream of striking a great, new Exit trade deal with the rest of Europe: you join a family, live with them for years, suddenly piss in their soup yet you expect them to offer you a coffee and brandy, and a special love during the night? Only in a particular type of the British mind.

We are pissing on Europe, we did piss on both Australia and New Zealand; do some expect those lands to say hey, welcome back, as if they needed us still? We deserted them and their vital industries, why would they care about us now, having long ago made other arrangements, except to welcome the skilled, bright minds always queuing up to go live there to find what is now ever more hard to find at home in the UK?

But, perhaps Parliament will do the really honorable thing, and stop this nonsense at the eleventh hour by taking charge of its real responsibiity which is to the country, not to fellow MPs. Given confrontation with a potential suicide, do you try to talk him down or do you approach and give him a helpful push off the cliff? It's up to you, Parliament, which will you be?

Cuba, Kennedy and the missiles proved that the edge can always be avoided, even at the very last moment. Britain still has time if it has moral guts.

Being from Spain and not UK not sure about the UK relations with Australia or New Zeland... So I don't have an opinion about that... With the rest I agree 100% with you Rob...

I don't expect that Germany or France agree with any of the demands of UK (not sure about the rest of countries... But Spain, if we keep the actual president, as it looks like is going to happen, will do whatever Germany says...). Specially, since agreeing with those demands will force also to renegotiate the treaties with countries such as Norway or Switzerland, non European Union countries, but that they need to allow free pass of EU citizens if they want to enter the common market...

Anyway, I hope you are right Rob, but I don't have too much faith in politicians... They seem more worried (all around the world... Not just UK) to do what they think it will get them more votes than the common good or, even, what it is common sense


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[stamper]

Given that he is coming from a country and social group with a generally higher standard of living, I'd venture to say "raise."

You going to America meant that it "lowered" the standard?

[stamper]

Given that he is coming from a country and social group with a generally higher standard of living, I'd venture to say "raise."

America. A country that is totally bankrupt bolstered by Chinese investment. The "standard of Living" is mostly debt and Trump could become the next president. 

[MarkJohnson]

Part of the fraudulent dishonesty of mainstream post-referendum talk is the use of a set of terms like 'will of the people', 'democratic decision', 'clear outcome' and such like. Given the range and complexity of issues in the question of EU membership, or not, many have referred to the profound inappropriateness, in a parliamentary democracy, of actually submitting this, one of the most complex political questions ever, to a referendum process. The 'result' can only comprise a set of responses to a number of much simpler questions, such as 'do I like having a lot of European immigrants in my deprived northern community', or 'do I want to return to the good old days of unencumbered British sovereignty without having to take orders from Brussels', and so on. In other words, the result cannot be seen as a meaningful response to the immensely complex issue of EU membership, but only as a sounding of community attitudes to partly emotional issues, each having a variable relationship to that of actual EU membership. That is, assuming we accept that there was a clear result. With a limited turnout and less than 4% difference in responses, if folks had tossed a coin to decide, results would not have been much different.

I very much hope People's Challenge and associated parties are successful. Can English politicians, on either side of the House, admit they have made a serious mistake in pursuing this phoney referendum result, one which is presently driving the country towards catastrophe of sorts? More broadly, when will the so-called mother of democracies ever have a political system and structure appropriate to the times we live in?

[Rob C]

Part of the fraudulent dishonesty of mainstream post-referendum talk is the use of a set of terms like 'will of the people', 'democratic decision', 'clear outcome' and such like. Given the range and complexity of issues in the question of EU membership, or not, many have referred to the profound inappropriateness, in a parliamentary democracy, of actually submitting this, one of the most complex political questions ever, to a referendum process. The 'result' can only comprise a set of responses to a number of much simpler questions, such as 'do I like having a lot of European immigrants in my deprived northern community', or 'do I want to return to the good old days of unencumbered British sovereignty without having to take orders from Brussels', and so on. In other words, the result cannot be seen as a meaningful response to the immensely complex issue of EU membership, but only as a sounding of community attitudes to partly emotional issues, each having a variable relationship to that of actual EU membership. That is, assuming we accept that there was a clear result. With a limited turnout and less than 4% difference in responses, if folks had tossed a coin to decide, results would not have been much different.

I very much hope People's Challenge and associated parties are successful. Can English politicians, on either side of the House, admit they have made a serious mistake in pursuing this phoney referendum result, one which is presently driving the country towards catastrophe of sorts? More broadly, when will the so-called mother of democracies ever have a political system and structure appropriate to the times we live in?

Mark, let me put it this way: for a Jr. Member ( ;-) ) you are writing rare, serious Snr. Member wisdom!

The problems/advantages of Membership in Europe are extremely complex, and even so-called intelligent MPs find it hard to talk sense on the subject, whether in the hope of not alienating their more crazy voters or because they, too, carry the burden of class madness (which cuts both ways, by the by).

Coming with a mixed-nationality background, having lived more abroad in terms of actual years than in the UK, I have seen a lot and mixed with many different shades of nationalism, some bright and some dumb. The overall impression I've gained is that most Europeans I've met are partly happy with "Europe", understand it is badly flawed, but also see, at first hand, the advantages that it has brought regarding travel, health and with so many other aspects of living. Those advantages outweigh the flaws. In part, I think it to be a problem associated with the British psyche: Italy, Spain, France, all of the players have an inborn skill in accepting all the rules, signing everything they are expected to sign, but actually doing whatever they want to do, as they have done all the while. Britain, however, is very suspicious of signing anything, and when it does, expects to be obliged to observe the rules. Bad mistake. Take what works for you and ignore everything else, just like the rest of Europe does. That way, you get what serves you best. A little pragmatism is really a healthy thing. It allows communal life to function.

Everything is balanced on a knife-edge, exactly as it has always been. Folks seeking perfect solutions are deluding themselves: there never have been any, if for the simple reason that what one party gains another loses, and the best one can hope for is an equitable deal where, from their disparate perspectives both gain as much as they lose... yet another case of applied delusion.

[jfirneno]

I just hope Parliament pulls the rug on the nonsense that the vote was.

It, the Go campaign, was conditioned by a pack of lies that were instantly denied, disowned as 'mistakes' the moment the result came in.

I think it's always amusing to see that democracy is only legitimate when the result agrees with the outcome that the commenter agrees with.  So here's my question.  You think the Brexit referendum was illegitimate.  Do you think that the Scotland vote if it had been to secede should also have been ignored by the UK Parliament?  After all it's the same issue.

[mecrox]

Not impressed by a lot of fellows out there (not in sensible here) strutting around talking about frustrating the will of the people. A look at European history suggests that when this line is tried, the tendency is for 19,000 people to end up being guillotined etc etc by one side or another. A compromise needs to be found and if it cannot be then it's best to return to the status quo until something new can be agreed on. Don't we all need to get on? How hard is this to grasp? At the least, that means a period of very careful consideration by everyone and more than a one-shot vote but of course, as these fellows like to claim, that would be frustrating the will of the people. Magical how they always seem to know what that will is and pretty soon they are appointing themselves to lordly offices and taking charge of it. The rest is, er, history.

[Manoli]

You need to grasp the difference between an advisory referendum and a legally binding one.
Here you go :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#Legality_of_a_referendum

I think it's always amusing to see that democracy is only legitimate when the result agrees with the outcome that the commenter agrees with.  So here's my question.  You think the Brexit referendum was illegitimate.  Do you think that the Scotland vote if it had been to secede should also have been ignored by the UK Parliament?  After all it's the same issue.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You need to grasp the difference...

For which the beautiful, paradoxical term is invented: "same difference."

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You going to America meant that it "lowered" the standard?

Since you are making it personal... You forgot that I used the term "country and social group." The social group I belong to is the one that is college educated, which, by the way, was a legal requirement for my working visa. That would put me above average for American standards (or any other country's for that matter). On top of that, I also had a post-graduate degree from an American university, arguably considered #1 in the world. My salary level before moving to the States was already twice or three times the American average as well. All together, hardly enough arguments to say that I lowered the standard.

[jfirneno]

You need to grasp the difference between an advisory referendum and a legally binding one.
Here you go :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#Legality_of_a_referendum

Well then by all means the the Tories should take the people's advise and give them the Brexit.

[Rob C]

I think it's always amusing to see that democracy is only legitimate when the result agrees with the outcome that the commenter agrees with.  So here's my question.  You think the Brexit referendum was illegitimate.  Do you think that the Scotland vote if it had been to secede should also have been ignored by the UK Parliament?  After all it's the same issue.

1.  "You think the Brexit referendum was illegitimate."

The Brexit vote was very clearly based on obvious and confessed lies and misinformation. The umbelical cord was yanked by statements that 300 million quid or so was being paid to the EEC per week that would alternatively have been paid into the NHS. Lie, disclaimed as 'mistake' the moment the quitters won the numbers, which at about 16 million out of a population of around 60 million is hardly the overwhelming mandate... it should be illegal not to vote. That way, what the numbers claim to represent would really mean something.

The vote was put to a population with very little sophistication, of an abysmally low standard of broader education on any international scale. Our top educational resources are wonderful; the average a disgrace due to the generational failures of parental expectation, supervision and care. My own kid's a teacher, and the best kids she gets through her classes are Chinese and Asian, because they come with a natural and parentally encouraged work ethic that so many 'Brits' do not have and carefully avoid cultivating. Parent/teacher nights are a confrontation between teachers and ignorant parents expecting teachers to teach in school and also to shoulder the responsibility for the rest of the education that a child requires. They forget that home life is also a huge a part of education.

Put a simplistic question to the vote, and the highest response you get will be based on the lowest interpretaion of that question and its hidden implications. Hence the confusion between the fact that 'foreign' workers are the people keeping the NHS alive, that are keeping the farms producing crops that are actually gathered, with the idea that those people are stealing jobs. Our own people have grown "too good" to accept some forms of menial work, so those become the preserve of the imported workers. Then at the other end of the spectrum, highly trained people come in and fill the gaps left by the 'Brits' who are neither willing to, nor capable of doing some of those top jobs, or have elected to vote with their feet to other countries where they are better rewarded.

2. "Do you think that the Scotland vote if it had been to secede should also have been ignored by the UK Parliament?"

The Scottish issue is entirely different, and based on an emotional trace memory kept alive by heather 'n' haggis entertainment ideals. It is deeply rooted in resentment aimed at the "English" who are supposedly stealing all of the Scotish resources. Strange concept. Take the whisky trade: huge Scottish dynasties ran those things, and when the right offers came along, they sold as high as they possibly could. Those were decisions made by private owners about private businesses. I saw no armed English or American soldiers come dr¡ving up to Scotland with bands and tanks to the merry music of Glen Miller... even less so, Japanese! The country's favourite beer is acually made by an Irish-owned company...

Resentment also stems from the industrial belts that long ago lost their traditional validity to competition from Japan, Korea, France and Germany.

You put all of this misplaced anger together with politicos searching for the opportunity to have their names down in history books, and you have the makings for all manner of crazy ideas and 'solutions' that are just dreams based on more dreams and stirred to the flavour of yet more dreams of avarice and fame.

Scottish Independence is about a real split from a long-established, working and historical condition to a situation where there is no chance of being self-sufficient without a massive increase in taxation that would simply drive the wealth makers elsewhere.

Both in the Scottish as in the British context, cutting existing relationships out of bullshit ideals and lies is suicidal madness.

IMO.

Rob

[Manoli]

Well then by all means the the Tories should take the people's advise and give them the Brexit.

... which, in a Parliamentary democracy, they alone can't do - it first requires an Act of Parliament.

The Prime Minister says she doesn't need one.
The Applicants say she does.
And THAT is what the application for judicial review is about - it's not the 'what', but the 'how' and the 'who'.

[Zorki5]

Mark, let me put it this way: for a Jr. Member ( ;-) ) you are writing rare, serious Snr. Member wisdom!

Rob, let me put it this way: his opinion matches yours...