Brexit

[john beardsworth]

I stand corrected.

Sorry to Bhutan's Parliament! Wikipedia tells me it doesn't have any members chosen purely on the basis of heredity.

[Alan Goldhammer]

A big part of Britain's problem is the screwy political system with a first-past-the-post system that turned a 37% popular vote into a Cameron government and a referendum intended to unify his party rather than take us out of the EU. On the left it lumps together Corbyn's unelectable socialist party with the wider social democrat to liberal centre. If only Blair hadn't prayed with Bush, he'd still be in power.

If GB had proportional representation I doubt that there would ever be a majority government.  It would suffer the same problems as the other countries that have proportional representation, governments falling at the drop of a hat.

[john beardsworth]

If GB had proportional representation I doubt that there would ever be a majority government.  It would suffer the same problems as the other countries that have proportional representation, governments falling at the drop of a hat.

Like Germany, you mean?

[mecrox]

Like Germany, you mean?

This might be wrong but my impression from Germany and also the Netherlands is that proportional representation leads to greater consensus and fewer changes to some aspects of national life such as transport, education, infrastructure, health and social services. Because such things are not constantly tinkered with or used as political playthings, they tend to do better and are supported regardless of whether particular governments rise or fall. A long spell of this would be a blessing for the UK, imho. Adversarial, first-past-the-post systems gives undue prominence to ideologues, I think, the most damaging types of all when they get their hands on power. It's not that their ideas are necessarily incorrect but that the certainty with which they pursue them can easily become lethal. Cp one Mr Bannon over the water from here.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I was thinking about proportional representation in the traditional sense where MPs are aportioned as a % of the popular vote that each party receives and not election by district.  Each party runs a list of candidates that are prioritized by the party.  If the Conservative party gets 37% of the vote for a parliament consisting of 100 seats, then the first 37 on the list are MPs in the new government.  Of course in a multiparty system this usually results in minority governments as was seen in Italy and France before electoral reforms.

[john beardsworth]

I understood that's what you meant by PR, and Germany is just one example where PR has produced good, stable government. There is a majority government, just not a single-party one. Also, in Germany there's a 5% (?) threshold which constrains the number of parties, while in Italy you get a multiplicity of parties. There isn't just one type of PR.

Compare that with 37% of the popular vote producing a majority government. I've lived in a safe seat for 25 years and I don't believe my vote has ever counted. If you'd been here in 2015, you wouldn't have known there was an election going on. With such a democratic deficit, is it any wonder that people used the Brexit referendum to have their say?

[Rob C]

I understood that's what you meant by PR, and Germany is just one example where PR has produced good, stable government. There is a majority government, just not a single-party one. Also, in Germany there's a 5% (?) threshold which constrains the number of parties, while in Italy you get a multiplicity of parties. There isn't just one type of PR.

Compare that with 37% of the popular vote producing a majority government. I've lived in a safe seat for 25 years and I don't believe my vote has ever counted. If you'd been here in 2015, you wouldn't have known there was an election going on. With such a democratic deficit, is it any wonder that people used the Brexit referendum to have their say?

That doesn't make a lot of sense. By your measure, we should then always have one party in power which is certainly not the case. Just look at Scotland, which was one of the greatest power blocks that Labour ever had... look at Labour there today.

And why on Earth would one envy the Italian system, a system that has had more changes of government in the post-war decades than anywere else I can think of; you want government by coalition, you get the camel rather than the horse.

Rob C

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

.... And why on Earth would one envy the Italian system, a system that has had more changes of government in the post-war decades than anywere else I can think of...

And yet they've been the 7th industrial power in the world all along. Go figure.

[john beardsworth]

That doesn't make a lot of sense. By your measure, we should then always have one party in power which is certainly not the case. Just look at Scotland, which was one of the greatest power blocks that Labour ever had... look at Labour there today.

And why on Earth would one envy the Italian system, a system that has had more changes of government in the post-war decades than anywere else I can think of; you want government by coalition, you get the camel rather than the horse.

Maybe read what I wrote? I mentioned Italy as a comparison with Germany where PR produces stability. Italian government instability isn't just because of the electoral system anyway.

No idea either how you imagine I'm saying one party in power. I'm saying the precise opposite, that PR produces a majority government, just not a single party one. Scotland's PR system did actually produce a small single-party majority in Holyrood, now it's a coalition - in either event, stability at least as far as Holyrood is concerned. In the Westminster elections first-past-the-post gave the SNP all but one seat with about 50% of the popular vote - leaving voters of all the other parties in the cold.

[Farmer]

For interest's sake, we use a preferential voting system here in Australia (being neither first-past-the-post or proportional):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_Australia#Preferential_voting

[john beardsworth]

Yes, there are many ways to achieve stable parliaments which roughly represent the popular vote. It's my contention (not alone) that the UK system which turned 37% into a single party majority and which returned 59/60 Scottish seats for the SNP should take a large part of the blame for the Brexit vote.

As an aside, the other day on the BBC's Question Time (a topical debate show) one audience member explained that she had voted Brexit after noticing that her supermarket bananas were all straight. She blamed that on the EU and it was the moment she decide to vote for Brexit! She then added without irony that she later found that Aldi, another supermarket that happens to be German-owned, did have curved bananas. That's Brexit for you....

[Rhossydd]

she had voted Brexit after noticing that her supermarket bananas were all straight. She blamed that on the EU and it was the moment she decide to vote for Brexit! She then added without irony that she later found that Aldi, another supermarket that happens to be German-owned, did have curved bananas. That's Brexit for you....

Yes, that's the story of Brexit. A huge number of ill informed people voting on nonsense issues they didn't understand. The complete irony of it is that they the people who will suffer most from the consequences of their ignorance.

[Rob C]

And yet they've been the 7th industrial power in the world all along. Go figure.

Easy: the Mafia always turns a profit. It's in the nature of mafias so to do; they are dilligent.

Rob

[Rob C]

Maybe read what I wrote? I mentioned Italy as a comparison with Germany where PR produces stability. Italian government instability isn't just because of the electoral system anyway.

No idea either how you imagine I'm saying one party in power. I'm saying the precise opposite, that PR produces a majority government, just not a single party one. Scotland's PR system did actually produce a small single-party majority in Holyrood, now it's a coalition - in either event, stability at least as far as Holyrood is concerned. In the Westminster elections first-past-the-post gave the SNP all but one seat with about 50% of the popular vote - leaving voters of all the other parties in the cold.

I did read what you wrote. Perhaps you might care to rewrite it? Germany in a state of stability? You need to watch more foreign tv or have some German friends. You need to consider the migrant issue there, VW and the big banks, the rising star of the neo-nazi drift, too. Then come back talking about stability. Italy has been a basket case since it was formed a relatively few decades ago. It is even less stable than the UK which achieved a form of unity a long time before Italy did. The bits of Italy that work are down to a few people, via their own huge companies and/or national crime syndicates. The politicians are mainly like most others: in it for what they get out of it. In Romania they are trying to legalize bribery up to €44,000. You coudn't make that up, either.

PR produces a mixed majority, yes, but of what? Inter-party deals, no firm direction, and permanent fudging just to keep getting the power buzz. That's so obvious that I'm surprised it's required that I bring it to light. We just had a fudged-up coaltion government in the UK a short while ago - don't you remember?

[john beardsworth]

Oh come on, Germany has had 60+ years of good, stable government. Italy was cited as an example of PR producing instability. Bye.

[john beardsworth]

We just had a fudged-up coaltion government in the UK a short while ago - don't you remember?

Nonsense. It was 5 years of stability and govt with popular consent in very perilous times. Bye.

[Chairman Bill]

Nonsense. It was 5 years of stability and govt with popular consent in very perilous times. Bye.

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh dear. It's the way you tell 'em.

Moving on, I want my country back. Pre-Brexit referendum, without the open, rampant xenophobia & racism (Daily Mail, Express & Sun excepted, obviously), without the ridiculous fear & hostility.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... A huge number of ill informed people voting on nonsense issues they didn't understand...

A.k.a.  democracy

[Rhossydd]

Moving on, I want my country back. Pre-Brexit referendum, without the open, rampant xenophobia & racism (Daily Mail, Express & Sun excepted, obviously), without the ridiculous fear & hostility.

+1

[john beardsworth]

Ha, ha, ha, ha. Oh dear. It's the way you tell 'em.

I'm certainly holding my nose while I say that the coalition did provide 5 years of much-needed stability after the crash. But it's obvious it did so. 

PS By "popular consent" I mean a stable majority in Parliament and a majority of the popular vote.