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Author Topic: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D  (Read 39739 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« on: June 24, 2016, 04:37:30 am »

Hi,

Hasselblad just created a new system. New bayonet, new lenses. The new camera is affordable compared to MFD pricing and competes head on with the Pentax 645Z price wise.

What I think that Hasselblad wanted to have a new concept, with a smaller but very high quality camera. I am pretty sure it will be successfull.

So, now we have a new camera system with new lenses. Those lenses won't work on the H-series. H-series lenses will work with the X1D with adapters. Fine for H-system users

It may be that Hasselblad sees 44x33 format as the future. No doubt, Sony can make high MP sensors for the 44x33 format. Would they 'scale up' the A7rII sensor to 44x33 size the resolution would be 70 MP. But, it is rumored that next generation may be around 72-75 MP on the A-series. Scaled up to 44x33 mm that would be around 125 MP.

So, it is quite possible for Hasselblad to develop a system optimised for 44x33mm. They just need some really excellent lenses and the two that they have keep a lot of promise according to the MTF data.

A weakness of this strategi may be that the difference between 44x36mm and 24x36mm may not be big enough.

If Hasselblad has chosen this strategy, it may be similar to the Leica S. Personally I feel that Leica missed on developing higher resolution sensors. The sensors should always match the lenses. So Leica makes what are said to be the best lenses in MFD but they have the lowest resolution sensor in MFD. Makes little sense to me

So, I would not be surprised if we see an X2D around the corner, sporting a 100+MP sensor from Sony combined with a new set of Hasselblad lenses.

That would be a credible strategy, and I would wish Hasselblad much success.

What about the H system? I think they develop that one as long as it is commercially feasible and they will support it for a long time.

The X-system may just be another leg to stand on, or the future path. For Hasselblad it is a venture in the unknown. But, I think they know what they are doing.


Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 06:25:45 am by ErikKaffehr »
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marc aurel

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2016, 05:33:27 am »

So, I would not be surprised if we see an X2D around the corner, sporting a 100+MP sensor from Sony combined with a new set of Hasselblad lenses.

The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.

Marc
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2016, 08:15:17 am »

The a7r2 is 42mp and the 44x33 sensor is 1.67 times the area so a scaled a7R sensor would be approximately 71mp not 125mp:

42(44x33)/(36x24)=70.6
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 08:20:37 am by E.J. Peiker »
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Ken R

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2016, 10:00:38 am »

The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package. In time I am sure more adapters will be made.

A much smaller and lighter 645z with much better lenses. Il take it.

For studio work I still MUCH prefer an Optical Viewfinder though.
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2016, 10:07:03 am »

The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.

Marc

Isn't that what camera makers do, create new business for them? New lens lines are a very nice strategy for that. Look what they have done with their new leaf shutter. Puts a lot of pressure on H users to sell all their now "vintage" lenses in order to buy the new ones with 1/2000. eBay is flooded with H lenses at the moment . very cheap. A pity that most of them won't work with AF on the new X1D.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:13:08 am by siddhaarta »
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2016, 10:09:42 am »

The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package.

As I understood, only newer H lenses which allow a certain firmware update will allow AF, all others will only work manually on the X1D. The big question is now where and when to get a list with the serial numbers which qualify.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:42:32 am by siddhaarta »
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2016, 10:30:57 am »


If Hasselblad has chosen this strategy, it may be similar to the Leica S. Personally I feel that Leica missed on developing higher resolution sensors. The sensors should always match the lenses. So Leica makes what are said to be the best lenses in MFD but they have the lowest resolution sensor in MFD. Makes little sense to me


You have a point here. My guess is that Leica had problems to get a better sensor form CMOSIS at the time, but I am quite sure that the S 008 will have a 50-60 MP sensor, time will tell. On the other hand, as a Leica S 007 user I am not that sad about the fact, that the current Leica S model "only" has a 37 MP sensor. The acuity of that fat pixels (6 microns), working with the S lenses, is that impressive (for example compared to my previous Nikon D810 with Zeiss lenses) that you don't miss it that much, at least if you do not print very big.

There is another aspect in it: the ergonomics of a MFD camera. I tried Pentax 645Z and Hasselblad H5D and didn't like the slowish electronics, obviously not really up to the task to handle the data of the 50 MP sensor. The Leica 007 has no lags at all, its almost like working with a state-of-the-art FF camera as the D810.

So again, it's a question of design priorities and trade-offs and I respect the decisions, Leica made. You can participate in the MP race, or you don't.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:47:48 am by siddhaarta »
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2016, 10:35:54 am »

The X1D with the H lens adapter offers access to an awesome lens range (from 24mm up to 300mm, all with AF) in a compact package. In time I am sure more adapters will be made.

A much smaller and lighter 645z with much better lenses. Il take it.
True but the lenses are a bit bulky plus you have to add in the adapter and the lenses are expensive for this system ($7K and nearly 1kg for a slow 24mm for example) ;)
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 10:39:02 am by E.J. Peiker »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2016, 11:02:53 am »

Hi Marc,

Not a larger sensor, but one with smaller pixels. Rumors are that Sony would have 72-75 MP in next generation full frame.

Best regards
Erik
The MTF charts of the new lenses for the system end at 27,5mm which corresponds exactly to half of the diagonal of the 44x33mm-sensor. I think it is unlikely that they will add ANOTHER line of lenses with a bigger image circle for a bigger sensor.

Marc
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2016, 11:10:08 am »

Yes, you are right. I mixed up with rumored next generation.

Best regards
Erik


The a7r2 is 42mp and the 44x33 sensor is 1.67 times the area so a scaled a7R sensor would be approximately 71mp not 125mp:

42(44x33)/(36x24)=70.6
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2016, 11:46:12 am »

Yes, you are right. I mixed up with rumored next generation.

Best regards
Erik
Actually I think 70mp would be just about perfect for this size sensor.  I'd be very content with that but native lenses need to be there.  Even 50mp is fine at least for now but again, the native lenses need to be there for me including something significantly wider than 30mm - plus Capture one support which will probably never happen although I suppose DNG converter will at some point support the X1D and that would be a back door into C1.
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Ken R

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2016, 11:47:27 am »

True but the lenses are a bit bulky plus you have to add in the adapter and the lenses are expensive for this system ($7K and nearly 1kg for a slow 24mm for example) ;)

The 24mm is not that big of a lens. Plus usually one uses that wide a focal length for architecture and/or landscapes at f8~f16. Never mind that one cannot get such a wide angle of view with the 645z.

Regarding Leica they can just make a deal with Sony and use the same 50mp sensor.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2016, 12:12:15 pm »

Hi,

My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:

First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.

The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.

For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.

But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.

Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.

Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.

50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.

Best regards
Erik

You have a point here. My guess is that Leica had problems to get a better sensor form CMOSIS at the time, but I am quite sure that the S 008 will have a 50-60 MP sensor, time will tell. On the other hand, as a Leica S 007 user I am not that sad about the fact, that the current Leica S model "only" has a 37 MP sensor. The acuity of that fat pixels (6 microns), working with the S lenses, is that impressive (for example compared to my previous Nikon D810 with Zeiss lenses) that you don't miss it that much, at least if you do not print very big.

There is another aspect in it: the ergonomics of a MFD camera. I tried Pentax 645Z and Hasselblad H5D and didn't like the slowish electronics, obviously not really up to the task to handle the data of the 50 MP sensor. The Leica 007 has no lags at all, its almost like working with a state-of-the-art FF camera as the D810.

So again, it's a question of design priorities and trade-offs and I respect the decisions, Leica made. You can participate in the MP race, or you don't.
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2016, 12:29:39 pm »



Regarding Leica they can just make a deal with Sony and use the same 50mp sensor.

I fear that won't happen. 2:3 was practically invented by Leica and Sony sensor is 3:4.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2016, 12:49:02 pm »

Hi,

The Sony sensor is 44x33mm and the Leica sensor is 45x30mm, so the Sony sensor can be cropped down to very near Leica dimensions.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between 37 MP and 50 MP, but 50 MP on the 44x33 sensor is probably not the last we see from Sony.

Best regards
Erik

I fear that won't happen. 2:3 was practically invented by Leica and Sony sensor is 3:4.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2016, 12:54:18 pm »

Hi,

The Sony sensor is 44x33mm and the Leica sensor is 45x30mm, so the Sony sensor can be cropped down to very near Leica dimensions.

I don't think there is a lot of difference between 37 MP and 50 MP, but 50 MP on the 44x33 sensor is probably not the last we see from Sony.

Best regards
Erik

Why would they do that? This would result in a 44x29 sensor with 44 MP. But they could make a deal with Sony about the 100 MP sensor if CMOSIS is not able to do that.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:00:00 pm by siddhaarta »
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2016, 12:58:04 pm »

Hi,

My problem with the Leica approach is twofold:

First is that they make very good lenses and having sensors with less resolution throw the resolution of those lenses away.

The second factor is that the resolution the sensor cannot handle yields fake detail. Unresolved high frequency detail is folded into low frequency artefacts. The reason you don't see that so often is that it is often very hard to tell fake detail from real detail.

For instance, I can shoot an image with my Planar 100/3.5 on the Hasselblad/P45+ combo. That back resolves about 39 MP. Now, I can put the same lens on my HCam Master TSII and shoot a thee stitch pano with the A7rII vertically, That would give me something like an 85 MP image. The 85 MP iamge is much cleaner than the 39 MP image from the "Blad". If I downscale the image from 85 MP to 39MP it will still be much cleaner than the original 39 MP image.

But, it may be the case that the differences are not very visible in moderate size prints.

Also, stopping down beyond f/11 may cause enough diffraction to reduce lens resolution enough to avoid artefacts.

Anyway, I think that great lenses need great sensors. When Leica introduced the S2 they said that the lenses were good for at least twice the sensor resolution of the S2.

50 to 37 MP is not a big difference. But assuming that next generation Sony is 70+ MP, the S system may lag behind.

Best regards
Erik

Sure, downscaling is always better.

As regards to the capacity of the Leica S lenses I may cite from an old interview, David Farkas made with Peter Karbe, head of the optical development department at Leica:

"With the 6m pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5m pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail."
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2016, 01:13:47 pm »

Hi,

just to say, I have tested my Planar 100/3.5 with high resolution black and white film on a resolution target and something like 220 lp/mm were resolved, albeit at low contrast.

A few years ago, Erwin Puts published MTF data for some classical lenses up to 160 lp/mm, here: http://www.imx.nl/photo/optics/optics/page61.html

The MTF values at 160 lp/mm were 25-35 %, much higher than what I would have expected, so at least something like 3 micron pixels would be needed to fully resolve those lenses and there would still be some aliasing.

Best regards
Erik


Sure, downscaling is always better.

As regards to the capacity of the Leica S lenses I may cite from an old interview, David Farkas made with Peter Karbe, head of the optical development department at Leica:

"With the 6m pixel pitch of the S2's sensor the lenses need to be able to resolve 83 lp/mm and I inquired if this was a challenge. This wasn't my first time conversing with Peter. I should have known better than to ask him a question like this. He got that "are you joking?" look on his face, grinned and said in no uncertain words that 80 lp/mm is not a problem, even at full aperture. He pointed out that the S lenses are capable of resolving 40 lp/mm at 80% contrast, wide-open, and estimated that 80 lp/mm could be resolved at about 60% contrast. So, the lenses clearly outresolve the current sensor. What about future generations? Where is the practical pixel limit for 30x45mm? Many have postulated that the next big advance in CCD sensor tech will be a 5m pixel architecture with a close-to 100% fill rate. This would result in a 54MP sensor at 30x45mm, but with this pixel size, the lenses would need to resolve 100 lp/mm. Will the S lenses be up to the task? Again, Peter flashed his signature grin and casually said that 100 lp/mm would be no problem. In fact, he felt the S lenses could resolve around 50% contrast at this frequency. No small claim, to be sure. My mind had already moved on to the next inevitable question. What exactly is the resolution of the S glass? Peter answered that he didn't know the exact figure, but guessed that the number would be between 200-300 lp/mm. That's a big number and a whole lot of detail."
« Last Edit: June 24, 2016, 01:43:18 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2016, 01:40:35 pm »

Why is there yet another thread on the X1D, with the same chatter as the others, guessing as to how things will pan out?
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siddhaarta

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Re: Some reflections on the Hasselblad X1D
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2016, 01:41:09 pm »

Hi,

just to say, I have tested my Planar 100/3.5 with high resolution black and white film on a resolution target and something like 220 lp/mm were resolved, albeit at low contrast.

Best regards
Erik

Surely, one of the finest lenses in the V lineup.
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