Problem: Copying Artwork & Matching Colours

[William Walker]

OK. I seem to have reached some kind of conclusion!

The print on the right is correct! I used the Hahnemuhle Canned Profile with RELATIVE Intent!

The conclusion therefore is that my Colormunki Profile is not great, and, because that profile showed no difference between Perceptual and Relative I did not attach enough importance to those settings with other profiles!

So, I have made a print, on HNM Museum Etching, that satisfies me in terms of colour matching.

I will make further tests with all my own Colormunki-created profiles and weed out those that are not good enough.

Although this exercise has cost me quite a bit of ink and paper, and you guys a lot of time and effort - I have learned something and made a further step forward with my printing!

For this I thank everyone who took the trouble to help! How fortunate we are to be able to do this...thank you Michael Reichmann!

[Mark D Segal]

Super, glad it is solved to your satisfaction William.

[Czornyj]

OK. I seem to have reached some kind of conclusion!

The print on the right is correct! I used the Hahnemuhle Canned Profile with RELATIVE Intent!

The conclusion therefore is that my Colormunki Profile is not great, and, because that profile showed no difference between Perceptual and Relative I did not attach enough importance to those settings with other profiles!

So, I have made a print, on HNM Museum Etching, that satisfies me in terms of colour matching.

I will make further tests with all my own Colormunki-created profiles and weed out those that are not good enough.

Although this exercise has cost me quite a bit of ink and paper, and you guys a lot of time and effort - I have learned something and made a further step forward with my printing!

For this I thank everyone who took the trouble to help! How fortunate we are to be able to do this...thank you Michael Reichmann!

This is completely illogical. I checked Hahnemühle HFA GE profiles for x300 and x400 and the chromatic differences between relcol and perceptual rendering intent are relatively small, at least way, way smaller than on your photo.
Please, forgive my curiosity, by would you mind showing your LR Print module Color Management and printer driver settings?

[William Walker]

This is completely illogical. I checked Hahnemühle HFA GE profiles for x300 and x400 and the chromatic differences between relcol and perceptual rendering intent are relatively small, at least way, way smaller than on your photo.
Please, forgive my curiosity, by would you mind showing your LR Print module Color Management and printer driver settings?

I was a bit tied up today - will do it tomorrow....

[William Walker]

This is completely illogical. I checked Hahnemühle HFA GE profiles for x300 and x400 and the chromatic differences between relcol and perceptual rendering intent are relatively small, at least way, way smaller than on your photo.
Please, forgive my curiosity, by would you mind showing your LR Print module Color Management and printer driver settings?

I have now spent the entire morning trying to replicate my "successful" print, and I cannot! I am now back to where I started...I made prints with (all on Hahnemuhle Musuem Etching):

1. Canned profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
2. Canned Profile with Custom Made Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
3. Colormunki Profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative & Perceptual.

Previous unsuccessful attempts - Colormunki Profile with Custom Media Settings - Perceptual.

This means that the same combination (#1) that produced the "successful" print on Monday did not produce a similar print today.

Marcin, I have included as many screenshots as I think may be helpful. Please let me know if there is anything else you need!

Many thanks
William

[Mark D Segal]

All of this looks pretty normal to me. The only disconnect I see is that you have resolution set to 600 in the printer driver and 300 in Lightroom Print Module, but that should not be the cause of this issue. Am I correct to assume "Special 9" is the correct media type corresponding to the profile for Hahn Museum Etching and the name of the profile in Lightroom's Print module is for the same profile?

[William Walker]

All of this looks pretty normal to me. The only disconnect I see is that you have resolution set to 600 in the printer driver and 300 in Lightroom Print Module, but that should not be the cause of this issue. Am I correct to assume "Special 9" is the correct media type corresponding to the profile for Hahn Museum Etching and the name of the profile in Lightroom's Print module is for the same profile?

Hi Mark
Perhaps you could clear up the point regarding the resolution.

I set the printer driver to "600dpi Highest" but change the Lightroom setting as per "From Camera to Print" on an image by image basis...Below 300ppi I set to 300ppi - above 300 I set it to 600.

Should I be changing the Print Driver on an image-by-image basis too?

The Special 9 Media Setting is the one recommended by Hahnemuhle when using their Museum Etching. When I get a new paper the Printer goes through a procedure to establish the optimum settings for that paper. I changed that just in case there was something wrong there.

[Mark D Segal]

Hi Mark
Perhaps you could clear up the point regarding the resolution.

I set the printer driver to "600dpi Highest" but change the Lightroom setting as per "From Camera to Print" on an image by image basis...Below 300ppi I set to 300ppi - above 300 I set it to 600.

Should I be changing the Print Driver on an image-by-image basis too?

The Special 9 Media Setting is the one recommended by Hahnemuhle when using their Museum Etching. When I get a new paper the Printer goes through a procedure to establish the optimum settings for that paper. I changed that just in case there was something wrong there.

On second thoughts the resolution settings are probably fine. The PPI in LR is the pixel dimensions output resolution of the image, the dpi for the printer driver is the resolution setting for reproducing those PPI. Perhaps leave it alone.

What did you change relative to Hahn's recommendations and why? Usually those settings deal with paper weight, thickness and ink lay-down appropriate for the specific media.

[Mark D Segal]

William, one more thought - and I know Marcin thinks the notion of gamut clipping is nonsense, but I'm not totally convinced about this. As I may have suggested already, I think you should try printing this same photo on a gloss/luster paper with much higher gamut volume (Try Ilford Gold Fibre Silk, Hahn Fine Art Baryta Satin or some such) in both RelCol and Perceptual Rendering Intents and see whether you get a close match for the problem colour range.

[JRSmit]

What is a good indication of something out of gamut is to go into softproof mode in LR and switch between perceptual and colorimetric. If the image appearance changes there is some part out of gamut. Even if the oog overlap does not show.

[Doug Gray]

William,

If you will post an image by doing the following I will examine the profile and identify whether there are any gamut issues using Matlab. I have the tools to do so quite precisely.

1. Convert the image to Adobe RGB.
2. Attach (do not convert) the printer profile you are using. The image will change but don't worry about that.
3. Make a post here including this image.

If you wish you can also do the same but attaching the custom Colormunki profile and I can compare them.

[Mark D Segal]

The approach is good, but why not convert the photo to ProPhoto just in case colours of interest lie outside ARGB(98) but inside printer gamut (not the case for matte papers, but can be for gloss/luster papers).

[schertz]

I have now spent the entire morning trying to replicate my "successful" print, and I cannot! I am now back to where I started...I made prints with (all on Hahnemuhle Musuem Etching):

1. Canned profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
2. Canned Profile with Custom Made Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
3. Colormunki Profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative & Perceptual.

Previous unsuccessful attempts - Colormunki Profile with Custom Media Settings - Perceptual.

This means that the same combination (#1) that produced the "successful" print on Monday did not produce a similar print today.

Marcin, I have included as many screenshots as I think may be helpful. Please let me know if there is anything else you need!

Many thanks
William

Keep in mind that the rendering intent set in the Develop module of LR will override the setting in the print module. If it is set as perceptual for the soft proof, then it will print with perceptual regardless of setting RelCol in the print.

MS

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

I have now spent the entire morning trying to replicate my "successful" print, and I cannot! I am now back to where I started...I made prints with (all on Hahnemuhle Musuem Etching):

1. Canned profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
2. Canned Profile with Custom Made Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
3. Colormunki Profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative & Perceptual.

Previous unsuccessful attempts - Colormunki Profile with Custom Media Settings - Perceptual.

This means that the same combination (#1) that produced the "successful" print on Monday did not produce a similar print today.

Marcin, I have included as many screenshots as I think may be helpful. Please let me know if there is anything else you need!

Many thanks
William

William, this may be a bit of a long shot – but perhaps worth checking/trying.

I don't have an Epson printer (I have Canons), but I do have a ColorMunki.  Recently I encountered a printing problem when the colours were totally out.  I tried everything including making a new profile and 'tuning' it via the ColorMunki software.  Long story short I found that if I deselected "16 bit Output" (Lightroom) or "Send 16 bit data" (Photoshop) this cured the awful looking prints.

Trouble is with this kind of problem is that its a slow process of eliminating all variables until you finally hit on the cause.  So, best of luck !

[Mark D Segal]

Keep in mind that the rendering intent set in the Develop module of LR will override the setting in the print module. If it is set as perceptual for the soft proof, then it will print with perceptual regardless of setting RelCol in the print.

MS

Can you point to where you got this information, because I don't believe it's correct. When you are finished soft-proofing in the Develop Module, once you decide which profile and Rendering Intent you want for the print, you must set these independently in the Print Module. What you set in the Print Module determines what gets used for making the print.

[Tim Lookingbill]

The approach is good, but why not convert the photo to ProPhoto just in case colours of interest lie outside ARGB(98) but inside printer gamut (not the case for matte papers, but can be for gloss/luster papers).

I don't see how this is a gamut issue going by William's point quoted again below I think everyone has just overlooked or didn't read...

I have now spent the entire morning trying to replicate my "successful" print, and I cannot! I am now back to where I started...I made prints with (all on Hahnemuhle Musuem Etching):

1. Canned profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;

This means that the same combination (#1) that produced the "successful" print on Monday did not produce a similar print today.

This means something is getting flipped on/off either with LR and/or the OS.

[Doug Gray]

The approach is good, but why not convert the photo to ProPhoto just in case colours of interest lie outside ARGB(98) but inside printer gamut (not the case for matte papers, but can be for gloss/luster papers).

Indeed, it could be in any RGB color space before attaching the printer profile. I was recommending Adobe RGB but it could just as well be ProPhoto. Adobe RGB gives somewhat better resolution between 8 bit RGB values. Like Tim said, I don't believe it is a gamut issue but on the posted samples some of the colors were right on the edge of sRGB's gamut so it seemed reasonable to use an Adobe RGB space.

The most important thing is that the color space used prior to attaching the printer profile is known. After I extract the printer profile for analysis I will re-attach that RGB known profile to the image.

[schertz]

Can you point to where you got this information, because I don't believe it's correct. When you are finished soft-proofing in the Develop Module, once you decide which profile and Rendering Intent you want for the print, you must set these independently in the Print Module. What you set in the Print Module determines what gets used for making the print.

I spent some time (perhaps a bit too much  ) looking around for the reference(s), but couldn't remember exactly where I saw it. I do recall that the people making the claims were respectable experts (perhaps Jeff Schewe, Andrew Rodney and/or an Adobe employee ?), enough so that I believed it. It was really bothering me that it couldn't find the original posting(s), so I ran some tests myself. I took an ProphotoRGB Granger? rainbow (cropped from Andrew Rodney's test image) and made two virtual Proof Copies for Epson Lustre paper, one with Perceptual RI and the other RelCol using the canned Epson profile. I printed each one from the print module twice, once with the matching RI set in the print module and once with a mismatch between the RI of the proof and the RI in the print setup (4 prints total, on the same sheet of paper, with the same P600 printer/inkset done back-to-back).

I'll try to attach pictures of the prints (please excuse the crappy iPhone shots), but examining them closely especially in the magenta region I can confidently say that the Print module is honouring the RI of the proof (set in develop) and ignoring the choice made in the print module.

I think the caveat here is that you have to make Virtual Proof Copies of the image and print from that for the embedded RI to take precedence.

MS


PS.
I found a reference in Jeff Schewe's "The Digital Print" in a side box on page 221 that suggests this should be the expected behaviour, although its a bit unclear how "you can override that". I believe if you select a different ICC profile in the print module, then the print module settings take precedence (my recollection from the past references that I can't seem to find...so don't quote me on that part, i haven't tested it).

[Czornyj]

William,

Everything seems to be perfect, that's what makes this issue so mysterious! I had tried to replicate your issue using virtually the same setup (OSX, LR, PA272W, iPF8300), but - no matter what setting, profile, rendering intent - I'm always getting quite similar results, unless I switch off the whole color management and print RGB numbers directly.
Do you have Photoshop? Please try to print this image using Canon PS Print Plug in (it's printing directly, "bypassing" iPF printer driver):
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/support/details/professional-large-format-printers/professional-photo-fine-art/ipf8400?tab=drivers#Z7_MQH8HIC0L88RB0AMD0F1Q42K25

I have now spent the entire morning trying to replicate my "successful" print, and I cannot! I am now back to where I started...I made prints with (all on Hahnemuhle Musuem Etching):

1. Canned profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
2. Canned Profile with Custom Made Media Settings - Relative and Percpetual;
3. Colormunki Profile with Special 9 Media Settings - Relative & Perceptual.

Previous unsuccessful attempts - Colormunki Profile with Custom Media Settings - Perceptual.

This means that the same combination (#1) that produced the "successful" print on Monday did not produce a similar print today.

Marcin, I have included as many screenshots as I think may be helpful. Please let me know if there is anything else you need!

Many thanks
William

[Mark D Segal]

I can confidently say that the Print module is honouring the RI of the proof (set in develop) and ignoring the choice made in the print module................I believe if you select a different ICC profile in the print module, then the print module settings take precedence

It can't be both. Martin Evening's book is pretty clear that the settings in the Print Module determine the colour management for the print, and this only makes common sense. The reference on page 221 is specific to what happens when you create a virtual copy and soft-proof it; but he also says you can over-ride it, which means changing the profile or RI in the Print module. One can play around with this, but the safest thing is to make sure that the settings in the Print module correspond with how you want the photo printed.