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rdonson

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The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« on: April 09, 2016, 04:07:06 pm »

Mark, thanks so much for such a thorough technical review.  I'm now itching to get my hands on some sheets of Baryta and Platine for my P800. 

I only have one minor suggestion or request.  It would be nice to have a summary at the end of the review.

Thanks again for the review.  Your hard work is greatly appreciated.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2016, 04:34:21 pm by rdonson »
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Regards,
Ron

Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2016, 04:40:27 pm »

Thanks Ron, much appreciated - and yes, I agree, a summary comment could have been in order. So in a nutshell, here goes: "very good papers"! :-)

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rdonson

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2016, 04:47:23 pm »

LOL - well said!!!   ;) ::) :o
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Ron

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2016, 05:53:10 pm »

Thanks for this helpful information.

I do have a hard time with the oxymoron of 'new legacy' though!    :)
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Sophia

Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2016, 05:56:50 pm »

Well, there is <new legacy> and <new Legacy> .  That may help! :-)
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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NeroMetalliko

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2016, 08:54:15 am »

Hello Mark,

many thanks for all the information you have provided, I really appreciate it.

However,
there is something puzzling and hurting me in the current launch management of these new Legacy papers:
all the press release information highlights that “Working with famous European paper makers, art galleries and chemical engineers, Epson created the Legacy paper line to be the finest papers available.” 
That's nice, so, given that they have worked with European paper makers, why on heart is the current launch not even known in Europe?
My country Epson support (which I have contacted) knows literally NOTHING regarding these papers and they told me that currently there is no planned delivery schedule. (!?)
This is really irritating: I can get a sample pack from USA but In Europe there is nothing planned?
We are very lucky that they worked with the European paper makers, I cannot imagine what could be the result if they don't have done this collaboration... :)

Sorry for the rant...

More on the topic:
do you have the possibility to make a new comparison of the (post Ilford bankruptcy) currently available alpha-cellulose baryta papers?
I would really like to directly compare the new Legacy Baryta against the recent HM Photo Silk Baryta (which, based on the SpectrumViz response is nearly identical to the currently re-branded Ilford GFS, and 99% probably both are manufactured from Felix Scholler), and including the old known Canson Baryta Photographique (which is what more near to the old Ilford GFS one can get today).
I have finished my old stock of Ilford GFS and I have adopted the HM Photo Silk Baryta now, because, despite the cheaper packaging which I hate (there is not a plastic envelope containing the sheets inside the box, just to say), I have done a good profile for it and it works very well.
In addition I feel myself more confident to use the HM protective spray on a HM paper.

Nonetheless, if you note, there was up today NO one super smooth low OBA alpha-cellulose baryta paper eligible as Epson Digigraphie certified media (the Ilford GFS and the Canson were not, neither is the recent HM Photo Silk Baryta. The HM Photo Rag Baryta is a cotton paper without OBA so not this category).
The new Legacy Baryta fill the gap now, and this is something to highlight in my opinion.
This is another reason why I would like to see a new chapter of the "battle of Barytas" saga updated with the latest editions of the alpha-cellulose papers on the market.   

What do you think?

Thanks again,
ciao.

Andrea :)




 
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Wayne Fox

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2016, 02:57:25 pm »

Very nice review.  Thanks for the information, on the road right now so I didn’t take time to dive into the numbers but I would like your take on one of my takeaways ...

As I read through it, it seems that despite what is currently believed that all Epson did was rebrand Canson papers as their own, they appeared to have gone to well established makers, and tweak what they were currently offering with some of their own parameters.  I also wonder if we are giving Canson too much credit, in that what they basically did was the same thing, take what these makers were already doing and tweaking it to fit their specific parameters.

Is my logic flawed?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2016, 05:01:10 pm »

Hi Wayne; thanks and glad you find it worthwhile.

On the subject of your takeaway - essentially I agree with you, but the changes Epson introduced could have well been more than tweaks - this is very hard to know without being on the inside; my takeaway, like yours, is that these papers are not rebranded Canson products.

Based on what I've observed and heard, Epson, as they intimated on the sample pack envelope, did indeed set about to work with European manufacturers to produce papers meeting Epson standards and specifications, and they've been working at it for quite a while. That said, I do believe that in this case as in many others, international experience accumulates, one product builds on another and new products very often evolve from existing ones, but with their own changes and improvements. Differences can be subtle or substantial, but either way that needn't change how the papers came about.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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deanwork

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2016, 05:15:25 pm »

Yes they are very excellent  papers, regardless of the label, and have been for all the years we have been using them. This media and it's coating was created by a collaboration by Felix Schoeller in Germany and Canson Infinity in France, and have been given many awards for them.

http://mb.cision.com/Main/9543/9894030/463620.pdf

Epson obviously couldn't come close to producing what Canson and Schoeller had done so they just bought into it some how. About a year ago the coatings of a couple of these were changed very slightly ( and remain so with the "Legacy" line. ) Whether Epson was in on that very subtle coating change for the Rag Photographique and Platine hasn't been revealed yet by Schoeller, but regardless it is insignificant. With my Canon printer there is no change in gamut or dmax or sharpness. But the fact remains the Canson rolls that have been out for well over a year is this same stuff. I'm using it right now.

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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2016, 05:28:22 pm »

Hello Mark,

many thanks for all the information you have provided, I really appreciate it.

However,
there is something puzzling and hurting me in the current launch management of these new Legacy papers:
all the press release information highlights that “Working with famous European paper makers, art galleries and chemical engineers, Epson created the Legacy paper line to be the finest papers available.” 
That's nice, so, given that they have worked with European paper makers, why on heart is the current launch not even known in Europe?
My country Epson support (which I have contacted) knows literally NOTHING regarding these papers and they told me that currently there is no planned delivery schedule. (!?)
This is really irritating: I can get a sample pack from USA but In Europe there is nothing planned?
We are very lucky that they worked with the European paper makers, I cannot imagine what could be the result if they don't have done this collaboration... :)

Sorry for the rant...

More on the topic:
do you have the possibility to make a new comparison of the (post Ilford bankruptcy) currently available alpha-cellulose baryta papers?
I would really like to directly compare the new Legacy Baryta against the recent HM Photo Silk Baryta (which, based on the SpectrumViz response is nearly identical to the currently re-branded Ilford GFS, and 99% probably both are manufactured from Felix Scholler), and including the old known Canson Baryta Photographique (which is what more near to the old Ilford GFS one can get today).
I have finished my old stock of Ilford GFS and I have adopted the HM Photo Silk Baryta now, because, despite the cheaper packaging which I hate (there is not a plastic envelope containing the sheets inside the box, just to say), I have done a good profile for it and it works very well.
In addition I feel myself more confident to use the HM protective spray on a HM paper.

Nonetheless, if you note, there was up today NO one super smooth low OBA alpha-cellulose baryta paper eligible as Epson Digigraphie certified media (the Ilford GFS and the Canson were not, neither is the recent HM Photo Silk Baryta. The HM Photo Rag Baryta is a cotton paper without OBA so not this category).
The new Legacy Baryta fill the gap now, and this is something to highlight in my opinion.
This is another reason why I would like to see a new chapter of the "battle of Barytas" saga updated with the latest editions of the alpha-cellulose papers on the market.   

What do you think?

Thanks again,
ciao.

Andrea :)

Hi Andrea,

At this time Legacy Papers are only available in North America.  Its best for those outside of North America to ask about local availability through the Epson Marketing office in their home country. I have no information about their distribution plans, but I sympathize with your frustration.

It would always be interesting to do more comparisons with more papers, so I shall keep this in mind as a future initiative. I am sure you understand it is both voluntary and time-consuming. :-)

Glad you liked the review.

Regards,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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RPark

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2016, 09:09:37 pm »

First: Hi, I'm a newby and this is my first post. Glad to finally join up.

I've been anticipating the Legacy papers with the notion to do my own "testing," though it will consist of simply comparing results to those on the Canson papers I already use -- mostly Platine -- which I chose to print editions of recent and "vintage" work. The latter is black and white (scanned from original medium format negs) printed on my Epson 4900, mostly using ABW method.

I wondered in a recent blog post on archival printing and presentation about the naming of the Legacy papers, e.g. Platine and Baryta: coincidence or ....? So I'm very much looking forward to seeing for myself and publishing my impressions.

As others have mentioned in a related discussion, pricing is also something to consider. It looks like the Epson papers are considerably more than Canson "equivalents."

Incidentally, I switched to the Canson Platine, despite its warmer tone, which I've grown to appreciate, after beginning to print my "Eighties Vancouver" portfolio on Epson Exhibition Fiber, since I was unable to get a sheet of it through the Epson 4900 without hairline scratches -- no matter what platen gap setting, etc. I tried. It is also prone to curling and subsequent paper jams.

Thanks for this detailed review.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2016, 09:52:49 am »

First: Hi, I'm a newby and this is my first post. Glad to finally join up.

I've been anticipating the Legacy papers with the notion to do my own "testing," though it will consist of simply comparing results to those on the Canson papers I already use -- mostly Platine -- which I chose to print editions of recent and "vintage" work. The latter is black and white (scanned from original medium format negs) printed on my Epson 4900, mostly using ABW method.

I wondered in a recent blog post on archival printing and presentation about the naming of the Legacy papers, e.g. Platine and Baryta: coincidence or ....? So I'm very much looking forward to seeing for myself and publishing my impressions.

As others have mentioned in a related discussion, pricing is also something to consider. It looks like the Epson papers are considerably more than Canson "equivalents."

Incidentally, I switched to the Canson Platine, despite its warmer tone, which I've grown to appreciate, after beginning to print my "Eighties Vancouver" portfolio on Epson Exhibition Fiber, since I was unable to get a sheet of it through the Epson 4900 without hairline scratches -- no matter what platen gap setting, etc. I tried. It is also prone to curling and subsequent paper jams.

Thanks for this detailed review.

Glad you enjoyed the review.

Don't be overly influenced by the names of papers, which of course have a large element of intended consumer appeal (a.k.a. marketing - nothing wrong with that). The words Baryta and Platine are of course names of chemicals. Baryta is a generic term for several barium compounds, while Platine is the French word for the element Platinum. The Baryta papers do contain Baryta in their coating, but I haven't heard that the "Platine" papers contain Platinum. Perhaps just as Ilford Gold Fibre Silk doesn't contain either Gold or Silk. So most of this doesn't provide anything particularly insightful - they are generic terms that get included in the formation of brand names, which become brand names by virtue of the complete title of the paper, each of which is of course intended to create distinctiveness.

I have run 17*22 inch sheets of Exhibition Fiber paper through my 4900 with no problems at all. so there may be an issue with your printer or settings. Did you try adjusting both the Width and the Paper Thickness in the Advanced Media Settings?

I think your approach of "seeing for yourself" by making comparison prints on several apparently similar papers is a practical way of deciding what you will generally use, taking price into account. To the extent feasible, you may also want to consider any available and valid comparative information on longevity, if that matters to you.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2016, 12:05:49 pm »

Mark,

I enjoyed your review, too, and your comments about marketing in your latest post.

Which makes me want ask: In the spirit of jumping on popular bandwagons, I wonder which paper company will be the first to offer "Gluten-free Fine Art Paper."   :D

Eric
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2016, 12:12:31 pm »

Mark,

I enjoyed your review, too, and your comments about marketing in your latest post.

Which makes me want ask: In the spirit of jumping on popular bandwagons, I wonder which paper company will be the first to offer "Gluten-free Fine Art Paper."   :D

Eric

Thanks Eric - I was just shuffling through a heap of test packs I have here from previous and potential future reviews, hoping that in this late stage of life I won't catch kissing disease from Ilford Gold Mono Silk, knowing anyhow that it contains no gold or silk.  :)
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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2016, 12:16:17 pm »

Thanks for responding, Mark. I was referring to the uncanny congruity between the names new Epson papers and the existing Canson papers, as many others have noted.

I'm not alone in the issue with the Exhibition Fiber; others have the same issue. I've tried every combination of settings. I used a lot of it before noticing the issue -- which is subtle, but in the right light quite noticeable and completely unacceptable. In the end, I opted for papers without OBAs.

Longevity: I apply the same scrutiny to digital materials as I did in the darkroom. Like most of us, I stay abreast of tests by Wilhelm, et al. In that respect, it's not clear to me if the extraordinary (preliminary) results claimed for the Legacy papers also counts in combination with the standard UltraChrome HD inks (used in the Epson 4900) or if those results are only achievable with the new inks.

Glad to learn from this review that the 4900 still holds its edge as far as potential gamut.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2016, 12:38:16 pm »

Thanks for responding, Mark. I was referring to the uncanny congruity between the names new Epson papers and the existing Canson papers, as many others have noted.

I'm not alone in the issue with the Exhibition Fiber; others have the same issue. I've tried every combination of settings. I used a lot of it before noticing the issue -- which is subtle, but in the right light quite noticeable and completely unacceptable. In the end, I opted for papers without OBAs.

Longevity: I apply the same scrutiny to digital materials as I did in the darkroom. Like most of us, I stay abreast of tests by Wilhelm, et al. In that respect, it's not clear to me if the extraordinary (preliminary) results claimed for the Legacy papers also counts in combination with the standard UltraChrome HD inks (used in the Epson 4900) or if those results are only achievable with the new inks.

Glad to learn from this review that the 4900 still holds its edge as far as potential gamut.

The longevity data from Wilhelm is ink and paper specific. We are still awaiting the results from Wilhelm for the Legacy papers.

Yes, while the 4900 remains a very wide gamut printer for the PK papers, a great range of photographs do not need this extra gamut to print very well on these papers, say from either a P800 or a Canon Pro-1000.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2016, 01:49:11 pm »

Thanks for responding, Mark. I was referring to the uncanny congruity between the names new Epson papers and the existing Canson papers, as many others have noted.


Not to be forgotten - platinum printing has a very long and beloved photographic pedigree - dating from the 1830s in Germany and England. So it's not entirely surprising or revealing of anything in particular that firms such as Canson and Epson would incorporate in their paper names the word "platine" to give those papers a certain "chachet" or distinctiveness in peoples' minds.
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rdonson

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2016, 02:45:13 pm »

Well said, Mark! 

Platinum prints from skilled printers can be something very special.  Seeing them in person can leave a lasting impression on what the art of printing is.  The dark tones and contrasts can be amazing.
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Ron

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2016, 03:17:21 pm »

Yes, but the paper name Platine, was the Canson surface  brand that was quite different than all the other sized printmaking papers. It was expensive but well worth the cost. We used to use it for Platinum contact printing and it was sharper and had more subtle tonality.





Well said, Mark! 

Platinum prints from skilled printers can be something very special.  Seeing them in person can leave a lasting impression on what the art of printing is.  The dark tones and contrasts can be amazing.
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RPark

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Re: The New Epson Legacy Papers Review by Mark D. Segal
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2016, 03:31:14 pm »

Having stood in awe before prints by Manuel Alvarez Bravo, I can attest to that.

Well said, Mark! 

Platinum prints from skilled printers can be something very special.  Seeing them in person can leave a lasting impression on what the art of printing is.  The dark tones and contrasts can be amazing.
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