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Author Topic: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!  (Read 51770 times)

eronald

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2016, 12:35:25 pm »

It's not a matter of what a Hasselblad employ may have told you to overcome a (possible) question on which one would (probably) ask "why don't you offer 4k video with your 50mp sensor ?" It's just simple math... 8K (cinema)  video is 4x2046=8184pixels of horizontal resolution needed and it's exactly the same pixels needed if one is to do 4k video but bin the pixels in fours, 8184 pixels is slightly less (because of the necessary tolerance needed) than the full width of the Sony 50mp sensor...  So... if the Haselblad guy received a question that he wouldn't know the answer, he just replied the first thing that came up to his mind so that he would "pass"...

Most probably the answer relies with marketing though (so that the "higher" model is better specified) than "lucking of pixels" which he claimed (and is proven to be wrong if one does the simple math).  ;)

Theo,

 A sensor does not a video camera make. You need to grab and write the data somewhere. In the mean time, you are heating the sensor. Basically, 8K video can be done, but you are looking at complex design issues, $5K or so of components, which translates into $30K OR $50K tacked on to the sales price. Give it another 3 years, and a standard external recorder descended from today's Odyssey Apollo will plug into the back's standard interface. That will be the H7D, if Hassy survives that long; I'm sure the aerial surveillance guys will love it, and put it on a drone device that can count every hair of every migrant headed to Greece, and call the boats to fish him out of the water.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 12:41:36 pm by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #141 on: April 17, 2016, 12:42:19 pm »

Theo,

 A sensor does not a video camera make. You need to grab and write the data somewhere. In the mean time, you are heating the sensor. Basically, 8K video can be done, but you are looking at complex design issues, $5K or so of components, which translates into $30K OR $50K tacked on to the sales price. Give it another 3 years, and a standard external recorder descended from today's Odyssey Apollo will plug into the back's standard interface. That will be the H7D, if Hassy survives that long; I'm sure the aerial surveillance guys will love it, and put it on a drone device that can count every hair of every migrant headed to Greece, and call the boats to fish him out of the water.

Edmund

That's totally different to the subject before... Nick claims that a Hasselblad employ told him that the sensor "doesn't have enough resolution"... well... it does!
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #142 on: April 17, 2016, 12:52:55 pm »

Theo,

 ....every migrant...

Edmund

Migrants don't drawn on waters buddy (nor they are that many)... only war refugees do drawn in the sea... It's the same war that made them refugees, which caused the disaster where you live (and my sister lives too) you know...  :-X
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NickT

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #143 on: April 17, 2016, 03:58:08 pm »

Nick claims that a Hasselblad employ told him

I'm not "claiming" anything  I'm telling you.
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #144 on: April 17, 2016, 04:26:01 pm »

I'm not "claiming" anything  I'm telling you.

What? that "it doesn't have enough resolution"? ...it does!
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #145 on: April 17, 2016, 11:41:58 pm »

Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #146 on: April 18, 2016, 02:47:56 am »

Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes silly me, I saved up for the "Sinar technical camera with Lica S and SL mount and FULL autofocus" based on Theo's predictions because as we all know, nobody gets more insider info than Theo.

Still waiting...
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RomanN.

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #147 on: April 18, 2016, 03:54:22 am »

Hi,
I also belong to these guys who would wish rather a cheaper 100 CVF back than this H-system back.
For technical cameras user it would be much more important a full compatiliby with copal shutters ( not only with speeds less than 1/8 sek), than this new "great-wow" 1/2000 of the h lenses.
What wide lenses do you want to use on your H6d100?
this old 35 mm HC with the greatest distortion of any 35 mm MF lenses?
or 28- 24 mm that only covers smaller sensors?
phase one have a great schneider 35 mm lens that is what such a back will need.
But is still not interesting for architecture becouse of that lack of shift/tilt.
All architecture guys will always use Roddy or schneider lenses on technical cameras, so why Hasselblad dont take them seriously and dont make a back for them?
Phase one still rules on the technical cameras ( with phase one and leaf backs) and it would be really interesting when there would be a company that would produce cheap backs only for technical cameras, with no additional camera system.
Such back could easy be sold under 10 000- see pentax prices, where the camera is also includet.
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #148 on: April 18, 2016, 05:33:21 am »

Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard
Can't remember if you participated on the conversation, but I do remember me saying on more than one from past discussions (the one when DJI invested on Hasselblad comes first in mind) that I would expect for Hasselblad to come out with a HQ video compatible release soon... I have also have said that the collaboration with Arri is a hint that they look into catching up with video technology know-how as they see that the convergence of technologies will be a major aspect in future sales... Well... I guess that by including RAW video on the H6D and by developing dedicated software part for video, is another hint that they're looking at the pro market from a convergence of technologies POV... If it isn't obvious to some, that's their conclusion... not mine! IMO, next Hassy releases of MFDBs will continue to develop on video aiming to catch up with the pro market... I expect them to soon release external recorders that one will be able to add (not necessarily by using the back on the camera platform - it can be on a properly designed for video, view camera too) and expand his video abilities further... Never the less, it's impressive that they where able to include highly specified video (and software) with their backs instead of making a "basic" entrance... It's a proof that they have worked hard on the matter... Lets wait and see what the firmware updates will be and what is coming next in terms of new releases... Surely "lots of new products" that Mr. Ooosten promised doesn't mean the H6D series only... It surely doesn't mean that the H6D series is complete with the current introductions either...  ;)
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wallpaperviking

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #149 on: April 18, 2016, 05:55:02 am »


Thanks Christopher, much appreciated!

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eronald

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #150 on: April 18, 2016, 10:11:49 am »

Theodoros,

You are probably the only person around thinking that Hassy is seriously targeting the pro video market, how often have you been right in the past in such cases?

I may be wrong but I don't remember any of your far flegged previous forecasts turning into a reality... why should we believe you this time around?

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 I too think that Hassy is testing the waters, at the very least for fashion use. Everybody is now working with video, lights are often continuous, and capturing an image in video and publishing on the web at least in short clips is becoming popular.

 Also Hassy's "gadgets" in the past have mostly been useful features - look at the shutter delay, TrueFocus and Multi-shot, the vertical finder.  None is a core feature for most studio photographers, but each has a set of afficcionados for who whom they are important.

 If I may make a personal observation, I believe you are now seeing Hassy as a japanese company, aggregating zillions of features cranked out by dedicated employees, overwhelming the customer with useless functionality, in a product made to have a sales life of a year at most.  With submodels packaged in different casings.

 European design as epitomised by the Scandinavian school tends to be a carefully planned process, leading to a spare but effective product doing exactly the minimum but doing it well, with longer product cycles, and reusing the same casings for submodels The Leica rangefinder and the Hasselblad V series have had a good run for their money, as did the Volkswagen Beetle or the french Deux Chevaux. The advantage of the japanese method is that the product can be revised and evolved to keep the most useful features so it keeps getting better. The advantage of the european method is that you need fewer designers and production engineers, as you don't need to revise your tooling so often.

 If Hassy are expending the huge engineering effort needed for video, they have some major reason for doing so. Video and especially RAW VIDEO (!) which they are doing is horribly hard, it heats your sensor, requires huge bandwidth, everything goes critically realtime. Video is not a minor feature, it is a characteristic which forces one to upsize all the system electronics, buses, storage media interfaces, and imposes real-time software engineering constraints.

 BTW I remember talking to ex Hassy CEO Christian Poulsen at the H launch and I asked him why they didn't have a vertical finder; and he looked at me and simply said "we don't have the money to develop it at the moment". Development resources are often considered VERY scarce in European companies, and only allocated when needed. Because when a feature is integrated, it needs to be done well the first time round. Hassy is not doing video just to tick a box on the specs.
 
 If you look at my prediction record, I think you will find that it is as good as that of any other industry insider, even though I never violate an NDA :)


Edmund
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 10:54:25 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #151 on: April 18, 2016, 12:38:31 pm »

I think that in P1 they are late with functions that are now established as standards among demanding pro productions of imaging (video, multishot... etc). If they are to be competitive, they surely have a lot of catching up to do... Perry Oosten mentioned in his latest interview something that should have been of particular interest to the MF market watchers... That among the new products that will be released this year, there is an entry level, portable MF camera coming... He additionally mentioned the Leica S as to specify the target group it will aim... After the interviewer additionally mentioned the Pentax 645, Perry Ooosten completely ignored it and insisted on portability instead.... IMO, he did ignore the Pentax because in is a wrong design (mechanically) that can never be portable and insisted on the Leica because it is the only MF camera around that has a body designed exactly for the image sensor it uses... Therefore I would expect (by listening carefully to the CEO's own words for "how great the mirror VF is", "entrance model" & "Leica S target group") that a new Hasselblad DSLR is coming with a body designed exactly for a 33x44 sensor... It means that one can expect a camera looking like the Leica S, but with a 4:3 sensor in it and a mirror box only a couple of mm longer than Leica's and price around the 10K mark... (possibly a reframed H6D-50 -with video- into a Leica S kind of body). This should mean that Leica will be forced to push prices further down too as it will then have direct competition from another "heavy name" brand, that has as much prestige as them...

I can see that it's going to be hard for Leica to compete, but I'm sure they'll manage somehow... I really don't see how P1 will be able to react on that though... They surely can release an entrance level DSLR by having the XF & IQ 350 reframed... but what about video and what the price would be if they don't reduce prices first for their current offerings?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 12:50:22 pm by Theodoros »
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synn

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #152 on: April 19, 2016, 03:14:21 am »

I need a new keyboard after reading Theo's latest ramblings because the coffee went straight into the old one.

- Typed on the touchscreen on my Surface Pro 3
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Christoph B.

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #153 on: April 19, 2016, 04:01:02 am »

Why on earth would P1 release a compact 'DSLR'-type medium format camera? That would ruin the whole modular aspect of their medium format approach and it would be very useless for their existing customers.
Besides it would be very expensive and cumbersome to design and produce a new body, that's why they try to keep the dimensions and form factors of their backs as close as possible even IF a sensor is smaller.

An entry level medium format camera would certainly be interesting, though I doubt it'll be better or cheaper than the Pentax 645Z or much more portable (if it has a mirror) The "problem" is that with smaller sensors and a tight budget and portability in mind people are more likely to turn to small format anyway (Sony A7RII or NikonD810), especially if the gain is minimal and they don't need stuff like leaf shutter lenses anyway.
If the sensor is only slightly bigger and does not offer much more resolution and it's still more expensive but much bigger and heavier...then what's the use?
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eronald

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #154 on: April 19, 2016, 03:15:11 pm »

In a way, I think this launch is a flop, because there is no real reason to upgrade except for CMOS or super-hi rez, and everybody who wants a CMOS Hassy already has it by this time. On the other hand, all the other launches from Hassy were equally low key in a way with the core model carried over with a new designation.

Let's hope Hassy really have something else to show, because the H6 will need to compete over time with the Phase to show its merits. This launch isn't going to bring the $$$$ $$$ streaming in the door straight away like the XF launch for which there was a lot of pent-up demand, even if users were happy with their backs. Phase called it right by locking the body, because no one in his right mind would want to dump a P65+ if they could avoid it.

Edmund
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NickT

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #155 on: April 19, 2016, 05:10:30 pm »

In a way, I think this launch is a flop...

Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...
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eronald

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #156 on: April 19, 2016, 05:17:55 pm »

Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...

I'll watch the H4 and H5 used market with interest ;)

Edmund
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DrakeJ

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #157 on: April 20, 2016, 09:50:15 am »

So... when does Hasselblad drop its prices on the H6D-50c with 40% like they did with the H5D-50c?

Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #158 on: April 20, 2016, 02:38:37 pm »

So... when does Hasselblad drop its prices on the H6D-50c with 40% like they did with the H5D-50c?

That is easy to answer... "when the trade off discounts will be stopped" should be it...  ;) It won't make much difference either...
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #159 on: April 20, 2016, 03:00:28 pm »

Edmund I presume you have not heard how the pre-orders are going...

 It would be really interesting to know this... I presume they are great and (almost) entirely based on trade offs, right?  It is rather easy for one to predict that it is so...
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