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Author Topic: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!  (Read 51283 times)

jduncan

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #120 on: April 11, 2016, 11:58:55 pm »

To the contra... Hasselblad is offering the (cmos) 50MS & 200MS backs as "stand alone" (meaning one can purchase them without having to buy a complete camera system) offerings for a few months now... I guess an MS version of the 100mp sensor will follow....

Normally multi shoot comes later on the generation. Just like the H5D. The issue is that each time you rise the resolution creating a multi shoot camera becomes more difficult.  The level of precession needed rise a lot.  An H6D-400ms will be something to behold, plus the the advantages in color reproduction.

My guess is that it will take some time.  Some people believe that they need to work on the lenses, but I am not sure about it.

Best regards,
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razrblck

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #121 on: April 12, 2016, 03:02:07 am »

Some people believe that they need to work on the lenses, but I am not sure about it.

I should have no impact. You are still shooting at 100MP for each frame, it's just the final composite image that has higher resolution.

If lenses are perfectly fine for 100MP in single shot, they will be just as fine for 400MP in multi shot.
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Miyata610

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2016, 03:11:02 am »

I should have no impact. You are still shooting at 100MP for each frame, it's just the final composite image that has higher resolution.

If lenses are perfectly fine for 100MP in single shot, they will be just as fine for 400MP in multi shot.

Hmm, my brain tells me otherwise, but it's been a long day and I trust it less at this time of the evening.
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NickT

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2016, 03:23:34 am »

Yes you are still sampling 100MP, just four times (RGGB), so if the lenses are up to 100MP single shot then they are up to 4 shot.
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2016, 05:55:31 am »

The requirements on the lens don't change with respect to single shot, either if the process is one of 4x (which results to the same resolution as if it was single shot) or if it is a 6x (with modern Hassy) or even 16x (Sinar & older Hassy) that quadrables the resolution. It is just the requirements for stability that change in the cases that a quadrupling the resolution process is used. With Hasselblad 6x the requirements for increased stability is very little with respect to 4x, with Sinar 16x it is more... Yet, there is a  benefit for using 16X with respect to 6x (not much but there is), since with 16X one quadrables the Nyquist limit too (it's the same as quadrupling the area of the sensor) while with 6x, the process interpolates a set of new columns and rows between the true colour ones that have resulted out of the 4x process... 
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #125 on: April 12, 2016, 08:57:41 am »

Yet, there is a  benefit for using 16X with respect to 6x (not much but there is), since with 16X one quadrables the Nyquist limit too

The Nyquist frequency is Doubled by the half pitch sampling steps.
 
Quote
(it's the same as quadrupling the area of the sensor) while with 6x, the process interpolates a set of new columns and rows between the true colour ones that have resulted out of the 4x process...

The 6x multi-step does not increase colour and luminance resolution as much as a 16 step process can, so while it's Nyquist limited resolution does increase, it's slightly less effective, but also takes less time to collect vibration and illumination variation artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #126 on: April 12, 2016, 09:51:35 am »

In an odd way to bring this from the other direction...

Using Olympus lenses designed for the 16 megapixel range (and probably just above) with multi-shot mode of the E-M5II or Pen F, they are delivering a 60mp or 80mp RAW file.  The lenses were obviously not designed for an 80mp camera.  The quality of the files actually improves with the multi-shot considerably.  Yes, resolution is gained, but the noise goes down, there is no moire, and the colors are much more accurate.  I have seen no indication that the lenses are the weakest link in any respect.  (in fact the 12-40 pro is pretty impressive compared to my Schneider 35XL)

Saying this, I would assume all the Hassy lenses would respond exactly as they do on the sensor in single shot mode.  I agree as well, a multi-shot version of the new 100 back would be absolutely amazing to see. 
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #127 on: April 12, 2016, 09:52:53 am »

The Nyquist frequency is Doubled by the half pitch sampling steps.

Actually it is double-doubled! (once horizontally and then vertically) ...thus quadrupled... it can also be concluded if one simply multiplies the resolution that results with the size of the pixel where he will find that the he has shot on a ....100x75mm area with 9μm pixels (for a 22mp multishot back).


The 6x multi-step does not increase colour and luminance resolution as much as a 16 step process can, so while it's Nyquist limited resolution does increase, it's slightly less effective, but also takes less time to collect vibration and illumination variation artifacts.

Cheers,
Bart

Exactly what I said... thanks for confirming. Hasselblad's 6X method only creates 4x non interpolated  true colour results, then it interpolates the additional resolution (only) using the same true colour results that where the outcome of the 4x part of the same process...
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #128 on: April 12, 2016, 10:03:37 am »

In an odd way to bring this from the other direction...

Using Olympus lenses designed for the 16 megapixel range (and probably just above) with multi-shot mode of the E-M5II or Pen F, they are delivering a 60mp or 80mp RAW file.  The lenses were obviously not designed for an 80mp camera.  The quality of the files actually improves with the multi-shot considerably.  Yes, resolution is gained, but the noise goes down, there is no moire, and the colors are much more accurate.  I have seen no indication that the lenses are the weakest link in any respect.  (in fact the 12-40 pro is pretty impressive compared to my Schneider 35XL)

Saying this, I would assume all the Hassy lenses would respond exactly as they do on the sensor in single shot mode.  I agree as well, a multi-shot version of the new 100 back would be absolutely amazing to see.

Γεια σου Αντωνη... Yet the results you'll get out of the Olympus will be far from comparing with an MFDB... Reason for that is partly mechanical, because the size of the pixels increase accuracy by a substantial margin and additionally because of the software, because the multishot capturing software uses simple methods of very accurate calibration... However one has to think..., if he is so highly impressed out of the Olympus results, what will happen if he sees the outcome out of an MFDB?  ;)
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TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #129 on: April 12, 2016, 01:31:44 pm »

 ;)  Oh, I was just stating what ive seen in multishot in regards to lenses.  I certainly know the difference between the formats.    I shoot both a cambo WRS system and a Hasselblad H system for my architectural and commercial work.  The olympus started out as my "viewfinder" for my WRS when I couldn't tether a laptop in certain scenarios. 
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NickT

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #130 on: April 16, 2016, 01:17:47 am »

Hi Nick,

Do you think there is any chance that in the 50MP back will shoot 4K in the future?

Ben

Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)
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bdp

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #131 on: April 16, 2016, 02:43:38 am »

Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

Thanks Nick! I'm sure HD will be fine for the sort of stuff I do. If a client really wants 4K I'll pull the Sony out of the bag again.

Got a 50 on order so very excited for mid May, which is my expected delivery.

Ben
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Paul2660

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #132 on: April 16, 2016, 08:15:57 am »

Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

Hi Nick

I was curious on this issue also.  Can you elaborate on the resolution issue and not getting 4 K. I only ask since there are hundreds of devices out there with much less resolution delivering 4K now down to the latest iPhone.  The 50 Mp would platform to me would have been a great place for a 4K solution.

Thanks
Paul C
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #133 on: April 16, 2016, 08:50:04 am »

Hi,

I would suggest that there may be three issues:

1) Readout speed, for video you need at least 24 frames/s
2) Processing speed, for good video you need full readout and downsize to 4K in real time, needs lots of CPU-power
3) Aliasing, videographers are more concerned about aliasing than still shooters as aliasing effectively destroys vide compression and may destroy things like green screen. For unaliased video a proper OLP filter would be needed and that OLP filter would be tuned for 4K video.

Best regards
Erik



Hi Nick

I was curious on this issue also.  Can you elaborate on the resolution issue and not getting 4 K. I only ask since there are hundreds of devices out there with much less resolution delivering 4K now down to the latest iPhone.  The 50 Mp would platform to me would have been a great place for a 4K solution.

Thanks
Paul C
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #134 on: April 16, 2016, 09:39:11 am »

Hey Ben
Apparently there just isn't the resolution on the 50 to do 4K. I can't face doing the maths but that's the word.

Also I suspect zebras are in the works :)

 Of course it's the opposite... the resolution of the 50 is good enough to do all 2K (by binning 16 pixels in square to perform as one) or 4k (by binning 4 pixels in square to act as one) or 8k (by using each pixel for recording the signal)... More than that, the sensor's resolution has provision for 8K cinema (4x2046 pixels needed) resolution rather than just HDTV 4K... (4x1920pixels of resolution needed).... It's Sony sensors... Sony doesn't produce sensors that can be specific for only one part of imaging... for them convergence of technologies is both to their interest and on their culture too... ;)
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NickT

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #135 on: April 16, 2016, 05:31:26 pm »

Of course it's the opposite... the resolution of the 50 is good enough to do all 2K (by binning 16 pixels in square to perform as one) or 4k (by binning 4 pixels in square to act as one) or 8k (by using each pixel for recording the signal)... More than that, the sensor's resolution has provision for 8K cinema (4x2046 pixels needed) resolution rather than just HDTV 4K... (4x1920pixels of resolution needed).... It's Sony sensors... Sony doesn't produce sensors that can be specific for only one part of imaging... for them convergence of technologies is both to their interest and on their culture too... ;)
I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...
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wallpaperviking

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #136 on: April 17, 2016, 07:15:46 am »

Apologies if this has been mentioned somewhere and I have missed it but am just wondering if both of the new Hasselblad sensors are Sony's "backlit" sensors? 

Thanks so much!
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Christopher

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #137 on: April 17, 2016, 10:15:44 am »

The 50mp Sensor is not new and the 100 is the same as Phase and perhaps soon Pentax. As far as I know there is no backlit sensor except the full frame 7r2?


Christopher Hauser
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eronald

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #138 on: April 17, 2016, 10:48:34 am »

I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...

I suspect Theo is right. Sony and its customers need working hi rez sensors for their own many purposes, of which still photography are just a fraction, and in fact some 50 sample files date from 3 years before the chip's adoption and release by Phase. Of course each customer chooses to implement what is desirable for his application, and the electronics for 25 fps 8K are presently well beyond Hassy's internal design capability. It is already amazing they can do raw 4K, and chose to budget delivering this very expensive feature.

One of the reasons I like Hassy these days is that they deliver some cutting edge camera features, like multishot and truefocus and now Raw video, and then actually make them work rather than be gadgets, while Phase concentrate on steady progress, C1, and their dealer network. Basically, Phase are always playing catchup on camera features. Leica have bet on ergonomics and lens quality, and that seems to work for them.

BTW, if one can do it, there is something extraordinary about framegrabs from a movie capture; I've done it with my GH4, and one gets some extraordinary "moments" when an expression or the light are just right. 4K captures are already 8MP, more than enough for web use.

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 17, 2016, 11:05:49 am by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: The H6D100c and H6D50c thread: The orange shutter button cameras!
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2016, 12:10:51 pm »

I'm sure you are right Theodoros, I'm just passing on what I have been told by Hasselblad, I imagine they are wrong and you are right...

It's not a matter of what a Hasselblad employ may have told you to overcome a (possible) question on which one would (probably) ask "why don't you offer 4k video with your 50mp sensor ?" It's just simple math... 8K (cinema)  video is 4x2046=8184pixels of horizontal resolution needed and it's exactly the same pixels needed if one is to do 4k video but bin the pixels in fours, 8184 pixels is slightly less (because of the necessary tolerance needed) than the full width of the Sony 50mp sensor...  So... if the Haselblad guy received a question that he wouldn't know the answer, he just replied the first thing that came up to his mind so that he would "pass"...

Most probably the answer relies with marketing though (so that the "higher" model is better specified) than "lucking of pixels" which he claimed (and is proven to be wrong if one does the simple math).  ;)
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