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Author Topic: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C  (Read 15295 times)

michaelclark

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2016, 04:25:24 pm »

After reading some of the responses here I went in and tried out a few more images in both Lightroom and Phocus.

For High ISO images (ISO 1600 and above) the noise reduction in Phocus couldn't match the excellent noise reduction in Lightroom. So for that scenario, which might be rare for lots of folks shooting with these cameras, Lightroom seems a better option.

When I worked up some landscapes shot at ISO 100, Phocus definitely had less noise overall in the image and also showed a wider range of colors that were truer to the scene.

I am not sure at this point I can say definitively that Phocus is always better than Lightroom but for a lot of situations it seems like it will be slightly better.

Side Note: This is the same when working up Nikon images in Nikon Capture vs. Lightroom. In Nikon Capture there is less overall grain in the image and excellent color. Lightroom is a hairs breadth away from Nikon Capture but offers a much nicer interface and fast speed. 

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I will continue to test them both as Lightroom is my main raw processor.

Cheer, Michael

The difference is big... more than a stop of clear DR advantage and sharper too with Phocus when trying my CF-39MS, but it was the same with my ex-528c too....
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Dustbak

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2016, 03:16:31 am »

"Lightroom affords the exact same image quality as can be had using Hasselblad’s Phocus software." Is there anything at all to back that up, other than they had access to the code?

I am not sure how the Hasselblad files were evaluated, but it appears to be just using Lightroom whereas the Phase files were exported from its raw converter, being Capture One. For a true comparison you should export the Hassy files out of Phocus. The Phase therefore "should" win, but didn't. I feel that the Hassy system is better all around than Phase having tried H2+Phase and now H3DII. Focus and recompose doesn't work so Hasselblad H4 and above wins there also.

Indeed. No way I would ever let Lightroom touch my HB files. The difference is clearly visible. Color, corrections and noise is definitely visibly different between Phocus and Lightroom. Personally I find the 1 focus point with true focus even more preferable than the kazillion focuspoints on the Nikon D800e. With the HB I can put focus where I want, with the nikon I seem to want focus always on places where no focuspoint seems to be.
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Chris Livsey

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2016, 04:47:22 am »

With the HB I can put focus where I want, with the nikon I seem to want focus always on places where no focuspoint seems to be.

Not only that but what type of sensor are you selecting?
Sometimes less is indeed more, in the D5 and D500 there are 153 autofocus sensors. 55 are selectable, 99 function as cross sensors. ( So obviously there are cross sensors you can't select)

Add lenses to the mix and 12-24mm, 60mm, and 600mm lenses all drop the outer columns as cross sensors leaving 63 cross sensors, in the total 153 sensors of which we can select 55. Not clear if all those dropped are not selectable anyway.
The 200-400mm, 500mm, all f/5.6 or slower lenses, and all non-AF-S lenses drop all outer columns as cross sensors, leaving only the middle 45 as cross sensors.
(facts from Bythom.com)

Any chance the shot moment will have passed by the time you have sorted it out?
Those who wish for multiple sensors should be careful in case the wish comes true.
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Dustbak

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2016, 05:58:30 am »

Yes, the simplicity of having only one focus point. Point it to where you want it to be sharp, recompose and capture is one of the appealing features of the HB over my Nikon. Nice to hear I am not the only one that thinks sometimes less is more in this case :)

Now if the focussing of the HB would only be as fast as with my 24-70VR.... (can't have it all)
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Jlister

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2016, 08:22:37 am »

True focus is essential to me when I shoot.  I had an h4d-50 and it almost always nailed focus.  I took advantage of the trade in deal they had in November and got an H5D-50c wifi for $16,000 (I missed the Christmas deal by one month so I basically gave away my H4D which pissed me off). My issue now is the speed of true focus on the H5D is really, really slow to lock focus.  If it is a dark studio I can't even use it anymore sometimes, other times it seems ok. 

I Think Phase One markieting department is amazing as well as the raw processing of Capture One, and this has to be why more pros seem to go with Phase.  I have two friends that use phase IQ and DF plus, and they warn clients before the shoot that the equipment is finicky and slow, not the way to start a shoot.  They also have to shoot tethered to make sure they nail focus.  I have to say when I saw the XF I was envious!  It has the integration of the back and body like Hasselblad, customizable buttons, and better autofocus.  After hearing about the bad focusing of the XF , I'm glad I have my Hassy.
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Jeffery Salter

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2016, 11:09:50 am »

Michael is an accomplished action/adventure photographer.  However his review of the XF350 is inaccurate.   I would suggest partnering up with a photographer who shoots with the XF system on a regular basis.  Not sure how helpful to make assertions when you have limited experience with a camera system.  I would gladly rent an IQ350 and meet Michael to do some photography.  He could give me some pointers of the actual use of Hasselblad system.  I have only shoot with the H1/H2 and not the latest models.

Upon a quick reading of Michael’s blog I noticed several statements which are not factual.

The article asserts that the Auto-focus on the XF is poor.  This is not true.
The article makes some incorrect remarks about LS glass and flash syncing.
His opinions about the Reliability based upon “Almost everyone has to send in their XF for service” are disingenuous and could greatly benefit from fact checking.


AUTO FOCUS

I have shot over 10,000 frames with my XF and have a very high percentage of sharp images.  Recently I shot three magazine covers for a national sports magazine.  The photo editors were very happy with the take.  No problems with focus on the XF.

This is how I do it.

In my long term experience in photography I have found that the majority of the time when a photographer has a lot of out of focus images it's due to operator issues and poor camera technique.  Here’s just a few examples.


1.  Out of focus VS camera shake/motion Blur.   It's vital to remember when handholding any camera to use at twice the focus length of the lens as a shutter speed.  This is especially true when shooting on a MFD camera. 

2.  Diopter adjustment.   On the view finder of the XF is a Diopter adjustment.  A)  Focus on an object.  B) While looking through the viewfinder - turn the dial until the image is crisp.

3.  Holding the camera.   The elbows should be in. One hand cups underneath the lens while the other hand holds the camera.  When you place your (non-shutter) hand over the lens it's easy to actually push the lens down a bit while shooting causing a bit of motion blur.

4.  Focus assist light.  Go into the menu of the XF and you can adjust the brightness to help the camera/lens snap into focus.

5.  Focus trim.  Is not only for dialing in the sweet spot of a lens.  The most important use of focus trimming is when your camera in lock into place and you chose not to focus and recompose.  For example when shooting a vertical magazine cover featuring  three quarter photograph of a woman wearing a swimsuit.  You can focus on her midriff area and simply apply a minus/negative amount of focus trim.  This reduces the focus and brings the focus the eyes.

This also comes into play when you have a background that is extremely contrasty or backlighted and the auto focus has the tendency to back focus leaving the foreground subject blurry, simple dial in a positive amount of focus trim.  It’s pretty straightforward to use.

SCHNEIDER KREUZNACH 35mm LS f/3.5

 Yes it does sync at 1/1600 of a second.  I own this lens.  The strobe system I use is Profoto combined with the Profoto Air Sync remote. 

I also shoot with an LS 28, LS 55, LS 110, LS150 and they all sync at 1/1600 of second with Profoto Air Sync remote on the Profoto packs.

The LS 40-80 Zoom syncs at about 1/800 to 1/1000 with Profoto air sync.


RELIABILITY

(In the blog it says everyone who has a Phase One system has to send it in for repair?)

This is not true.

I don’t climb mountains or jump out of planes.  Just do advertising and editorial photography.  My Phase digital back has about XX,XXX frames on it.  I’m a bit shy to say how many…..it has never been to Denmark for service.  My XF has as mentioned about 10,000 on the shutter.  Never been in for service.  My Phase One system lives in a Gura Gear backpack (the 34L) I wish I could say that I wrap my gear in bubble wrap, most readers of the forum would say Jeff please please put a little protection around your gear……

Here is a picture of my XF frame counter.


« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 04:55:55 pm by Jeffery Salter »
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Joe Towner

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2016, 12:34:44 pm »

Everyone is overlooking the biggest bit in the article:
"But, I will also say this, I only had one afternoon with the Phase One XF and the IQ350 back and I had five days to try out the Hasselblad H5D 50c WiFi before deciding to purchasing that system."

It takes a few days of use to really get comfortable with a system, you have to to shoot, look at files, shoot more, look at more files...

-Joe
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landscapephoto

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2016, 02:34:29 pm »

If it is a dark studio I can't even use it anymore sometimes, other times it seems ok.

Have you tried to turn the AF illuminator ON?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 04:23:42 pm by landscapephoto »
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DrakeJ

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2016, 02:59:48 pm »

5.  Focus trim.  Is not only for dialing in the sweet spot of a lens.  The most important use of focus trimming is when your camera in lock into place and you chose not to focus and recompose.  For example when shooting a vertical magazine cover featuring  three quarter photograph of a woman wearing a swimsuit.  You can focus on her midriff area and simply apply a minus/negative amount of focus trim.  This reduces the focus and brings the focus the eyes.

This also comes into play when you have a background that is extremely contrasty or backlighted and the auto focus has the tendency to back focus leaving the foreground subject blurry, simple dial in a positive amount of focus trim.  It’s pretty straightforward to use.

How do you practically do this on the fly? Seems like a very awkward solution. Why not use live view and focus manually, since I'm guessing you are already on a tripod to go into a submenu to change focus trimming for a lens?

abouho

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2016, 03:00:13 pm »

Hi Michael,

I've been working with Phase One and Hasselblad systems as a freelance DIT for more than 6 years. I also work at a rental house that happens to be a regional distributer for Phase One, amongst other brands. We used to carry Hasselblad systems but we got rid of them about 4 years ago because of how unreliable they were and how bad their customer support was. I have access to pretty much everything that Phase One makes and at least 4 XF bodies at any given time. I also regularly work with 4 photographers who own Phase One systems. I may also be a tiny bit biased.

I would like to point out a few factual errors in your blog post as well as a few subjective observations that I've made.

Auto Focus: Having used at least ten different XF bodies with many different lenses and backs, I've found the autofocusing to be largely consistent if you put the known limitations into consideration. The amount of people online who claim that they can't get sharp images using the XF really surprises me. In my experience, when an image appears out of focus with the XF, it's usually pilot error. I've seen photographers using extremely low shutter speeds with natural light while handheld, shooting a moving subject while they themselves are moving, and thinking that "focus recompose" means they can take a few steps back and to the side while recomposing. Assuming you have a rough idea of how focusing works, you probably have faulty body, lens, or a bad combination of back, lens and body. One of the main reasons a lot of professionals I work with go with the XF and IQ3 is for the 5 year warranty and uptime guarantee. If you have any issues with anything at all (even if it's completely your fault), Phase One will make sure you have a working system in your hands within 24 hours and in our case, we would swap your faulty system with one of our tried and tested rental units until the loaner arrives from Copenhagen. I generally find that people who put down over $30,000 for a camera system will not hesitate to take advantage of this feature. It baffles me how anyone when faced with AF issues after spending that much money, would choose to go online and complain on some random forum instead of contacting their dealer immediately to get a replacement. In our entire region, we've only had one body returned to Phaseone to have the focusing system recalibrated and two situations where the lens was a bad copy, one of which was sorted with AFMA. Regarding focusing in low light, as others mentioned, the XF should turn on the AF assist light by default if it can't focus using ambient light. You must have had it turned off. As for "True Focus", try putting your Hasselblad on a tripod and pointing it at something still then initiate autofocus a couple of times. If you look at the focus scale on top of the lens, you'll notice that it will refocus each time at a slightly different point even when nothing is moving. This level of inconsistency might not make much of a difference when stopped down but try nailing focus with the 100mm at f2.2 on the H5D-50c. The XF, on the other hand, won't even attempt to shift the lens if nothing moved when you refocus and focusing with a 150mm at f2.8 has never been an issue for me. Another great feature that's been introduced in the H5D is True Focus 2, which seems to just take twice as long to focus as the H4D without actually being any more reliable.

Image Quality: Knowing you only had 7 out of 200 images in focus, I'm not surprised that you consider the images coming from the Phaseone to be soft. What constitutes as "sharp" nowadays is very subjective anyway. I know some photographers who are more than happy with images shot handheld with the old Canon 24-70 at f2.8 on a 5Ds at ISO 800 and others who won't accept anything not shot with Rodenstocks at f8 with a 60mp Dalsa. A few photographers who switched from Hasselblad to Phase One this past year mentioned to me how what they thought was sharp on their Hasselblads looks soft now in comparison. A lot of others couldn't tell the difference and don't really care. I personally did a side by side image quality test between the IQ250 with 645DF+ and the H5D-50c when it first started shipping. In terms of sharpness, the images from the Hasselblad looked great until you put them next to the ones shot with the Phase One at equivalent focal lengths. That was especially apparent when comparing the zoom lenses and pretty much any of the primes when shot wide open. The only Hasselblad lens that could actually out resolve the 50mp sensor is the 120 macro. As for high ISO performance, in my side by side testing I used Capture One to process Phase One files and Phocus for Hasselblad. The default values of the two different processing engines gave different noise characteristics but I managed to get them to look quite similar with a bit of tweaking on Capture one. With the right settings, Capture one is able to remove so much noise from the highlights to the point where you can't really tell the difference between ISO 100 and 6400 unless you look closely at the shadows. Phocus seemed to sacrifice a lot of detail when applying noise reduction and it required playing around with the sharpness to get a lot of it back. When noise reduction is turned off completely, both cameras gave very similar levels of noise (it is the same sensor after all). I also noticed that the time that Phocus took to generate previews of high ISO files was significantly longer that Capture One and the time increased exponentially the higher the ISO was. I think it's a bit unfair that your only comparison is between two completely different photos, especially considering that shutter speed contributes a lot to shadow noise on both cameras and having details in your photos also helps.

Ergonomics: This is obviously very subjective. I just wanted to note that the touch screen on the XF can be locked by swiping to the right and tapping "touch" and the one on the back can be locked by tapping the the little speech bubble on the bottom right and then tapping the key icon. The interface is designed to be almost completely usable without ever touching either screens. The only thing you can't access without touching the screen is the new focus stacking, HDR, and timelapse tools that were introduced last month.

User interface: You mention that mirror up on the XF has to be put up for every shot. This is simply not true.

Flash Sync: As Jeffery mentioned, all the lenses sync up to 1/1600 with the exception of the 40-80 and 240. They're designed to sync at 1/1000 when stopped down but I notice that you can get away with syncing at 1/1600 with just a bit of vignetting on the 40-80.

Reliability: As I mentioned before, Phase One are confident enough with their system that they're willing to include a 5 year warranty and uptime guarantee with every new system. Good luck getting that from Hasselblad. I've seen Phase One cameras working smoothly in a quarry where the temperature exceeded 60 degrees celsius, an indoor ski slope where it was -15, crazy sand storms, water park rides, in underwater housings, and on top of the tallest building in the world. In all theses situations, the photographers were confident enough to not bring a backup.

Finally, you mentioned this:

Quote
I have Elinchrom’s amazing Hi-Sync technology, which allows me to sync strobes at up to 1/8000th second with my Nikons if I really need to freeze motion using strobes.

I'd like to point out that your shutter speed does not make much of a difference when you're trying to freeze motion using strobes. It's your flash duration that matters.

Mellifluous felicitations,

Ahmed
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 03:16:27 pm by abouho »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2016, 03:39:36 pm »

Image Quality: Knowing you only had 7 out of 200 images in focus, I'm not surprised that you consider the images coming from the Phaseone to be soft. What constitutes as "sharp" nowadays is very subjective anyway. I know some photographers who are more than happy with images shot handheld with the old Canon 24-70 at f2.8 on a 5Ds at ISO 800 and others who won't accept anything not shot with Rodenstocks at f8 with a 60mp Dalsa. A few photographers who switched from Hasselblad to Phase One this past year mentioned to me how what they thought was sharp on their Hasselblads looks soft now in comparison. A lot of others couldn't tell the difference and don't really care. I personally did a side by side image quality test between the IQ250 with 645DF+ and the H5D-50c when it first started shipping. In terms of sharpness, the images from the Hasselblad looked great until you put them next to the ones shot with the Phase One at equivalent focal lengths. That was especially apparent when comparing the zoom lenses and pretty much any of the primes when shot wide open. The only Hasselblad lens that could actually out resolve the 50mp sensor is the 120 macro. As for high ISO performance, in my side by side testing I used Capture One to process Phase One files and Phocus for Hasselblad. The default values of the two different processing engines gave different noise characteristics but I managed to get them to look quite similar with a bit of tweaking on Capture one. With the right settings, Capture one is able to remove so much noise from the highlights to the point where you can't really tell the difference between ISO 100 and 6400 unless you look closely at the shadows. Phocus seemed to sacrifice a lot of detail when applying noise reduction and it required playing around with the sharpness to get a lot of it back. When noise reduction is turned off completely, both cameras gave very similar levels of noise (it is the same sensor after all). I also noticed that the time that Phocus took to generate previews of high ISO files was significantly longer that Capture One and the time increased exponentially the higher the ISO was. I think it's a bit unfair that your only comparison is between two completely different photos, especially considering that shutter speed contributes a lot to shadow noise on both cameras and having details in your photos also helps.

It's likely given his short use of the time, and the seeming lack of input from an experienced dealer during his testing, that he may not have realized that Capture One's default noise reduction is quite aggressive, and that if you're not afraid of a little grain (provided it's even and pretty) that turning it down benefits sharpness. Using all-defaults is a reasonably defensible method for comparing cameras in a head-to-head review, but it's not very representative of what the average user of a given camera will do once they learn the system inside and out.

Like most defaults in Capture One the default noise reduction can be permanently changed at the click of a button. So if you like it lower than when installed, you can set the default to be lower and not have to worry about messing with those settings. The Film Grain tool is also a great asset when shooting at very high ISO. Counter intuitively adding MORE grain to already moderately grainy high ISO image sometimes helps create the look by shaping the way that grain is rendered. Most of the Details styles we have in our Capture One Preset Pack are with lower than default noise reduction.

There's also something to be said for lowering the threshold of sharpening from the default of 1 to 0.5 or even 0.0.

Anyway, in general saying that Phase One (properly used) doesn't produce razor sharp images is just not right. But, like many systems, it's not unusual to need a few days of experience before really knowing what can be gotten out of it (even if you're an earnest reviewer and a talented photographer). To Michael's question earlier... yes, as a dealer we provide a number of ways for clients to test a back before purchasing.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 03:47:56 pm by Doug Peterson »
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eronald

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2016, 04:20:11 pm »

Doug, my Macs work out of the box. You want the customer to have a good C1 default experience? Give him a good C1 default experience.

Edmund


It's likely given his short use of the time, and the seeming lack of input from an experienced dealer during his testing, that he may not have realized that Capture One's default noise reduction is quite aggressive, and that if you're not afraid of a little grain (provided it's even and pretty) that turning it down benefits sharpness. Using all-defaults is a reasonably defensible method for comparing cameras in a head-to-head review, but it's not very representative of what the average user of a given camera will do once they learn the system inside and out.

Like most defaults in Capture One the default noise reduction can be permanently changed at the click of a button. So if you like it lower than when installed, you can set the default to be lower and not have to worry about messing with those settings. The Film Grain tool is also a great asset when shooting at very high ISO. Counter intuitively adding MORE grain to already moderately grainy high ISO image sometimes helps create the look by shaping the way that grain is rendered. Most of the Details styles we have in our Capture One Preset Pack are with lower than default noise reduction.

There's also something to be said for lowering the threshold of sharpening from the default of 1 to 0.5 or even 0.0.

Anyway, in general saying that Phase One (properly used) doesn't produce razor sharp images is just not right. But, like many systems, it's not unusual to need a few days of experience before really knowing what can be gotten out of it (even if you're an earnest reviewer and a talented photographer). To Michael's question earlier... yes, as a dealer we provide a number of ways for clients to test a back before purchasing.
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landscapephoto

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2016, 04:25:22 pm »

 :o Whao! So many people jumping in to defend Phase One. Apparently Phase One never heard of the Streisand effect.  ::)
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eronald

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2016, 04:32:10 pm »

Astroturf

:o Whao! So many people jumping in to defend Phase One. Apparently Phase One never heard of the Streisand effect.  ::)
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Jeffery Salter

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2016, 04:51:16 pm »

How do you practically do this on the fly? Seems like a very awkward solution. Why not use live view and focus manually, since I'm guessing you are already on a tripod to go into a submenu to change focus trimming for a lens?

Live view is great for architecture and static objects.  I never use it when photographing people who move.  It takes three to five seconds to set the focus trim.  You don't have to do for every frame only if you change your set-up. 

I apologize in advance for any blunt language.  It you are locked off on a tripod, and the auto focus center is aimed at the breast area of a model, the area of crisp focus will be the on the chest.  By using focus trim and adding a negative amount accordingly you can reduce the front focus and move the crisp, dead on area of sharpness to the models/subject's eyes. 

I have attached a few iPhone snaps of the XF menu.  It's not like digging for gold.  You are simply pressing the silver bar twice and scrolling a dial on the camera near your thumb. I hope this helps.





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landscapephoto

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2016, 05:34:15 pm »

Astroturf

Do we have enough real members to justify the effort?  ::)
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Doug Peterson

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2016, 05:38:59 pm »

Doug, my Macs work out of the box. You want the customer to have a good C1 default experience? Give him a good C1 default experience.

Capture One works out of the box. Macs work out of the box.

Both require some customization for advanced users if they want to get the most out of it.

But given that we (DT) offer a free setup/training on Capture One with any purchase which leans heavily on customizing the UI and settings to that particular clients needs/style I think we are in fact doing as you suggest :).

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2016, 06:32:12 pm »

We just saw C1 defaults bite you in that review.

Your customers get  the most out of Phase One, hardware and software; And when they have an issue they call the expert (you) on the cellphone, and help is there. But mabye the rest of the world is not so lucky :)

Have you sent a mystery buyer to your colleagues?

Edmund

Capture One works out of the box. Macs work out of the box.

Both require some customization for advanced users if they want to get the most out of it.

But given that we (DT) offer a free setup/training on Capture One with any purchase which leans heavily on customizing the UI and settings to that particular clients needs/style I think we are in fact doing as you suggest :).
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abouho

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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2016, 11:12:13 pm »

Doug, my Macs work out of the box. You want the customer to have a good C1 default experience? Give him a good C1 default experience.

Edmund

Good is subjective. Some people like crisp punchy grain and others like flat fuzzy detail. When you buy a Mac, it works but not always the way you want it to. That's why you've got system preferences.
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Re: H5DC wifi vs. XF-IQ350C
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2016, 11:43:25 pm »

I handled the XF100 for 15 minutes a few weeks back, enough for me to walk out early. Let me tell you why: it was yuuuuuge, and I've seen some yuuuge ones. I know people with H5, good people, and even compared to this big Swede it was yuuuuge. Not for people with hands on the small side, let me tell you.
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