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Author Topic: A Trickey Situation  (Read 15335 times)

Ghibby

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2016, 09:39:12 am »

Just some advice on processing the RAWs. 

First, all CCD based cameras (along with any Sony CMOS based cameras) are IOSless.  Meaning that if you take an ISO 50 file that was under exposed by 2 stops and push it 2 stops in post, you will get the same exact IQ as a properly exposed ISO 200 file. 

All CCD based cameras, except for the P45+, IQ 260, IQ 360, and IQ 380, are really bad at long exposures.  Heat builds up faster on a CCD, and unless the camera captures a black file and the sensor is designed for long exposures, you really can't do long exposures.  30 seconds is the limit, but noise from heat will start to show up earlier.  You can use C1 to remove any single pixel noise to a degree, but he really should have done those exposures at a higher ISO to avoid noise from heat.  If it is too bad to deal with, push a shorter exposure; as noted above, it really does not matter where the push occurs (in camera vs. in post). 

I would recommend C1 v. 8 (if not v. 9) for the processing.  C1 v. 8 was really a great jump ahead with noise reduction; C1 v. 9 is slightly better here, but the increase in the amount of tools you can use is a real advantage.

Thanks Joe, I am a lightroom user personally and I am seeing some fairly good conversions so far. I have literally just spent some time with C1 pro 9 as a trial, expired 2 weeks ago. The image quality is undoubtedly very nice, it certainly has a slightly different look to lightroom and I feel noise / grain control is better than LR as is the scope for colour adjustment. For the rest I think a lot is down to personal preference and perhaps above all else operator experience.  I know lightroom extremely well but I am a beginner on C1 pro.  I feel I can get as good but different results from lightroom in much less time so I will stick with that. For the really grainy images I am using NIK software in PS, (nice timing from Google on making this free!). Its a step up from the default PS tools in cleaning up the noise, a bit of spot localised correction for the hot pixels that are not picked up.  Thankfully only a few images from the low light / night shots are really important to us so I will invest a bit of time and care these.

We have decided to re-shoot the project later in the year though.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2016, 12:40:53 pm »

... Next time I would strongly suggest you get a contract in place spelling out what is expected of both parties...

And exactly what part of that contract would've prevented what happened? What contractual clause would deal with "Oh, we just do not like what you did"?

Endeavour

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #42 on: April 07, 2016, 12:57:50 pm »

And exactly what part of that contract would've prevented what happened? What contractual clause would deal with "Oh, we just do not like what you did"?

it would give you a basis to further negotiate and/or withhold payment - something which he didnt have the right to do before in my opinion.
as this is a pro business discussion, I simply offered my professional opinion based on running with & without contracts in the past

But I wont bother responding again. you appear to want to hold the last word
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MarkM

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #43 on: April 07, 2016, 01:12:40 pm »

And exactly what part of that contract would've prevented what happened? What contractual clause would deal with "Oh, we just do not like what you did"?

This is the language from the standard ASMP contract:

Quote
Client is responsible for sending an authorized representative to the assignment or for having an authorized representative review the images remotely during the assignment. If no review is made during the assignment, Client is obligated to accept Photographer's judgment as to the acceptability of the Images.

More here:https://asmp.org/tutorials/terms-and-conditions.html

Additionally, it is common to have contingencies for reshoot and kill fees which will provide a road map if things go wrong or change mid-assignment.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #44 on: April 07, 2016, 01:14:36 pm »

it would give you a basis to further negotiate and/or withhold payment - something which he didnt have the right to do before in my opinion.
as this is a pro business discussion, I simply offered my professional opinion based on running with & without contracts in the past

But I wont bother responding again. you appear to want to hold the last word

This isn't about the last word. This is very precisely about exactly WHAT contractual clause would "give you a basis to further negotiate and/or withhold payment." Since you have that experience, I am simply asking to share it with us. You or someone else. And I am not claiming that such a clause does not exist, just asking for examples.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #45 on: April 07, 2016, 01:19:17 pm »

Quote
If no review is made during the assignment, Client is obligated to accept Photographer's judgment as to the acceptability of the Images.

Which is what some of us were saying from the beginning is the case, without the fancy legalese and without a contract.

JoeKitchen

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2016, 01:22:06 pm »

I think the heart of the issue is whether to use a contract or not. 

If you are dealing with smaller more skittish clients on small projects, then, yes, a contract may scare them off.  However, for large assignments, it is industry standard to have a written agreement across all markets and industries. 

For large paying projects, to proceed without a contract, I think, would make you look unprofessional, especially to an ad firm that knows what they are doing. 

On top of that, it is always good to protect yourself. 

Not to mention it clearly states, in written form, what is to be expected from both parties.  They can take the contract and hang it on their fridge if they want to; there's no what-ifs or ambiguities. 

Same sort of thing when it comes to saying you price.  Never ever say your price until you have a written proposal in front of them.  It just looks more professional, it gives you the opportunity to explain what will be done, justify your price.  Plus people always assume it is easier to negotiate a number down that is said then that is written. 

P.S.

On Friday last week, I had a major flooring company reach out to me about purchasing a license for 6 images I had shot for the architect 5 months ago.  I drafted a proposal and a contract for those images and got it to them by Tuesday.  With no problems what so ever, they signed it, got it back to me yesterday, got the images today, and I just got payment through Paypal.  On top of that, it was written in my contract that credit card payments would be subject to additional merchant fees, so they were not surprised when the Paypal invoice was 3% higher then what was originally proposed. 

Overall, they are very pleased, love the images and felt I was very professional to deal with. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 01:42:17 pm by JoeKitchen »
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MarkM

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2016, 01:58:06 pm »

Which is what some of us were saying from the beginning is the case, without the fancy legalese and without a contract.

Sure we are saying that now, but the OP didn't, which led to this thread and could have been avoided had there been a standard photo contract like ASMPs.

What you are calling 'fancy legalese', others call precise language. There's nothing fancy about it it's very standard. It's written this way to avoid different interpretations, which are all too easy when you are trying to recall in hindsight the details of an oral agreements.

A contract does three things that would have been really helpful in the OP's case:
  • Reminds both parties of all the details that need to be addressed but are easy to forget when you are working on other things like logistics, and art direction that at the time seem more important and are a lot more interesting to think about.
  • Provides precise language that insures both parties are talking about the same thing, which you can point to if there is a disagreement.
  • It forces both parties to address these issues before there are disagreements, which is by far the best time to deal with them.

Your argument against contracts seems to boil down to:
  • They spoil the mood
  • I once knew a guy who didn't use one and was fine.
These are the same arguments teenage boys use against condoms. It's a poor argument in both cases.

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douglevy

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Re: A Trickey Situation
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2016, 05:42:05 pm »

Contracts are like prenups, kill the relationship before it even starts  ;)

I could not disagree more. No contract, no work. I don't need a retainer or expenses up front (but have asked and they're nice), but in my opinion, professionals sign contracts, it's irresponsible not to. My best clients understand this and I think (hopefully) would think less of me if I didn't ask for one. Many of my larger clients also require NDAS and detailed other forms.

Amateurs don't use contract, it's poor business not to, and like the above posters says, the argument for not holds no water. This guy has been lucky.

-Doug
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 05:45:14 pm by douglevy »
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