Topic: ipf5000 (Read 435954 times)

Fred Ragland · « **Reply #160 on:** June 29, 2006, 11:46:48 am »

Whether we are interested in differences between printers or differences in each printer over time, we'll eventually have to come to grips with the issue of sample size and how to make sense of the data.

Statisticians call the voyage we've embarked on Experimental Design (remember that statistics course you had to take that you couldn't figure out how you would ever need it?), manufacturers call it Process Control. The tools are available to state whether there is a significant difference between two or more printers and to what extent the difference is attributable to time. The tools require that sample size be adequate and that all extraneous influences be controlled.

If we simply want to know whether printers significantly differ on a measure, assuming all extraneous influences are controlled, a sample size of roughly 25 to 30 is needed. If we also want to know the affects of extraneous influences such as manufacturing batch, usage time, paper type, paper batch, ink batch, etc., sample requirements become very large.

If we want to know whether each printer changes over time while also determineing whether printers significantly differ and why, we're thrown into the world of longitudinal design which requires much more data and different methods of analysis.

Of course, Canon should be doing this. Their excellent process control in other areas of manufacturing demonstrates that they know how to do it and can get it done. But this relatively new manufacturing group will have to learn the lessons other Canon groups have solved.

My DsII proves that Canon can solve these problems, but it will take time.

Jack Flesher · « **Reply #161 on:** June 29, 2006, 12:57:40 pm »

Quote

Personally I'm far less interested in consistency between two printers than consistency of one printer over time. I guess the former issue is of interest to those using canned profiles, but with custom profiles I just don't see it as something to be concerned about.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69435\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

While I agree with you in theory, in practice I see the problem a bit more significant. If there is not consistency between two of the same model printers, it does not bode well for the canned profiles out of the gate, demanding one builds custom profiles for their machine. Moreover, this shows a lack of concern for consistency on Canon's part which then begs the questiopn if the same lack of concern spills over into the ink manufacturing. If it does, then it becomes a more significant problem IMO.

claskin · « **Reply #162 on:** July 01, 2006, 03:37:47 pm »

Quote

Whether we are interested in differences between printers or differences in each printer over time, we'll eventually have to come to grips with the issue of sample size and how to make sense of the data.

Statisticians call the voyage we've embarked on Experimental Design (remember that statistics course you had to take that you couldn't figure out how you would ever need it?), manufacturers call it Process Control. The tools are available to state whether there is a significant difference between two or more printers and to what extent the difference is attributable to time. The tools require that sample size be adequate and that all extraneous influences be controlled.

If we simply want to know whether printers significantly differ on a measure, assuming all extraneous influences are controlled, a sample size of roughly 25 to 30 is needed. If we also want to know the affects of extraneous influences such as manufacturing batch, usage time, paper type, paper batch, ink batch, etc., sample requirements become very large.

If we want to know whether each printer changes over time while also determineing whether printers significantly differ and why, we're thrown into the world of longitudinal design which requires much more data and different methods of analysis...[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Fred,
Very interesting perspective but I cannot help but comment here. Your initial sample size calculation of 25-30 to compare one printer to another of the same make and model may be accurate, assuming you have the power calculation done correctly. I think that this comparison is critical since you have to assume that the printers are clones of each other like inbred animal strains. There really should be no difference at all between the printers. If there is, it speaks of quality control issues which I believe you alluded to.

Regardless, it is likely that only you and I appreciate your analysis which I personally found intriguing probably because it fits my usual day-to-day paradigm. If you decide to do the study, let me know. It will definitely have to be multi-center!
Carl Laskin

MBenny · « **Reply #163 on:** July 03, 2006, 07:54:11 pm »

Quote

Here's a question that occured to me a few days ago, and this seems like as good a time as any to bring it forward.

Epson claims that all "Pro" printers are individually calibrated and linearized at the factory. But, since these printers (4800, 7800, 9800) are deliverd with dry heads and ink lines how is this process done? For each printer / head combination to be calibrated means printing, yet if prints were made with that system, how do they then arrive dry and clean?

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=69370\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Michael
Stange I know, that the printers are clean when u get them. However I have on many occasion seen a Epson with traces of ink and what looks like testing has been carried out. How they clean them again is a mystery.
Cheers
Mark

martinmitch · « **Reply #164 on:** July 08, 2006, 01:30:13 pm »

My Canon iPF5000 was delivered to me on 29/6/06 in London U/K and it took a few days to sort out the set-up and begin printing.There are the same gliches that have been noted by other artists on web sites but they are no big problem there appears to have been an update to the initial software on my install discs.
The article by Michael Reichmann describing his experiances setting up and printing with the iPf5000 was very helpful -thank you.
I use a lot of bright colour often primary in my drawings and prints and find this printer has taken such printing to a new level where Epson printers cannot compete,I have used such printers in the past but this canon printer is better all round.Michael in his in-depth article articulates very well and I do agree with the problems he has noted.The intersting discovery is imagePROGRAF Print Plug-in and I agree it is better to print using this new piece of software .The paper profiles are very good ,colour reproduction and intensity astonishing far better than using standerd driver and photoshop,but the detail and print quality are better than other makes of A2 inkjet printers.
The paper used so far are Fotospeed High white smooth 315gsm.Fotospeed Matt duo 200gsm printer drivers do not like this paper Matt Photo was best setting and Hanemuehle Photo rag 308 gsm setting Fine Art heavywieght photo,same also for first paper .
My next step is to obtain profiles for the papers I print with and develop my ability to print using the iPF5000 using twelve colours it ‘s opening a new area in fine art printing and will help introduce many artists in fine art painting,sculpture and printmaking to inkjet printing.

Martin Mitchell

Brian Gilkes · « **Reply #165 on:** July 08, 2006, 05:51:42 pm »

Martin,
Thanks for that qualitative appraisal.
The fine art area is probably the most critical of all .Your further experiences would be of great interest. Reports on color accuracy , linearity and consistency, from early adopters are very important.
Brian
www.pharoseditions.com.au

martinmitch · « **Reply #166 on:** July 17, 2006, 02:44:02 pm »

Hello.

I'm using the Canon iPf5000 - slowly to print images and beginning to make profiles using PrintfixPRO,problems are beginning to appear in the software supplied by Cannon.

Using imagePrograph Photoshop plug-in problems are.

1]The types of paper described in supplied print profiles are of limited use when choosing to use the cassete why this should happen is incredibaly shortsighted and lousy writting of software by Canon,it's near impossible to print a gloss type paper through cassete,most of the time the photoshop plug-in sends you to manual or paper-roll for paper insertion to printer,the same with other paper choices from supplied profiles.This has to be rectified by Canon otherwise the printer will not sell to the public.This problem rears its head yet again when using Photoshop and Print Management why is beyond belief!!!

2]Often the printer will print the previous image when using imagePrograf unless you cancel that image before printing the current image.

3]Each time one powers up the printer it does a head cleaning cycle is this really neccessary?

4]The most trying problem is when one tries to put paper into tray [top loader !] it works one time in five a problem that was evident back at the factory to any of the technicians developing this printer.

These noted problems are extreme,for Canon to send a printer to market aimed at the proffesional printer is stupid and word travels fast about a printers failings,instead of its attributes
but for all of these problems I will carry on using my Canon iPF5000.The colour prints I'm producing cannot be eqalled by any other inkjet printer in this class on the market today the colour reproduction is fantastic and detail is becoming more pronounced as I develope tricks to tease increasingly better prints out of this printer.Creating ones own paper profiles is the direction one should take with this printer unlike when using an Epson printer where many artists use existing profiles and then play with color management tools.Lazy push button injet art!!!!! for feeble galleries.

One question.

What experiance have other users of this printer had using Setting 1 to 5 and what influence do these settings have when creating paper profiles?

Me.
I'm a painter,printmaker and animater living in London U.K using a Powermac G5 Quad 6mb of ram,pair of viewsonic screens an old Epson 1290 printer using Lyson Fotonic ink in refillable cartridges and my wonderful new CanoniPF5000printer.Software mainly Photoshop CS2 plus some attachments and Maya 7 which is amazing to print rendered images from much softer and detailed than Photoshop.The Canon picks out very delicate changes in colour and tone gradation when printing from Maya 7 rendered images.Animated films are edited using Final Cut Pro 5 but that is another story I'm here for the ink jet printing knowledge passed on by individuals with far more experiance than me.

Thanks.
Martin Mitchell

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #167 on:** July 17, 2006, 05:12:25 pm »

Quote

Hello.

The colour prints I'm producing cannot be eqalled by any other inkjet printer in this class on the market today the colour reproduction is fantastic and detail is becoming more pronounced as I develope tricks to tease increasingly better prints out of this printer...........................I'm here for the ink jet printing knowledge passed on by individuals with far more experiance than me.

Thanks.
Martin Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

From what I've seen so far (a limited sample), if you place a Canon IPF5000 print of a real-world photograph (not a test chart) beside an Epson 4800 print, all else equal and using matte paper, for the same image an independent observer would be hard-put to say which print came from which printer. Using glossy paper, the Canon has better D-Max for rendering deep shadow detail.

I cancelled my order for the Canon printer, because the total cost would come to over 3000 CAD, I'm not in the mood to spend all this money on unperfected merchandise, Canon has a number of issues to sort out and I don't know what they are doing about them, there is not enough operating experience to know which issues are more critical than others, and my Epson 4800 continues to make fine prints, albeit with the well-known issues from that technology. Each to his/her own of course, and those who are more adventurous than I am, therefore buying the Canon printer will be doing the rest of the community a service by noting the problems and making sure that Canon is aware of them. No doubt that with the necessary amount of juggling, users are getting fine results from it too.

martinmitch · « **Reply #168 on:** July 18, 2006, 02:51:49 am »

Hello,
My use of the Canon iPF5000 for printing is for coloured images and drawings not for photographs,Ihave no experiance of using this printer to print photographs which is an area for producing images more involved with pixels,light,tone and a different use of light and shadow.My images are drawn using wacom pad or scanned in with an epson scanner.Occassionaly I'l use Alias SketchBook Pro to part create an image then develope it in photoshop so my way of using this canon printer is different from a photographer,it's the wide colour gamut and clear bright colours produced when printing on hahnamuhle paper that attracted me to this printer even with its numerous failings.
Once problems with this printer have been resolved then I'm sure many photographers will print using a Canon iPF5000.

Note .
Last night when trying to print colour test chart in imagePrograf plug-in discovered it clips both ends of the chart.

Come on canon sort out problems with this printer,my canon dealer just told me he has twenty such printers in stock but nobody appears to be buying them here in U/K ---------WHY?

Thanks
Martin Mitchell

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #169 on:** July 18, 2006, 08:49:17 am »

Quote

.........................
Come on canon sort out problems with this printer,my canon dealer just told me he has twenty such printers in stock but nobody appears to be buying them here in U/K ---------WHY?

Thanks
Martin Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70985\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Martin, perhaps this was a rhetorical question, but nonetheless deserves being though about. It is - in my mind anyhow - truly perplexing how an extremely sophisticated, experienced and wealthy corporation like Canon could so effectively botch their entry to - what is for them - a new market niche that they obviously intended to take very seriously. This market niche is also sophisticated. People who buy these machines know what they're doing and are generally deliberate about their purchasing decisions.

But these things happen. Companies periodically just "get it wrong" - because they underestimate - or fail to estimate - the importance of just enough factors to create unsold inventory on dealers' shelves. To err is human (and all these firms are run by people, let us not forget); but less excusable is the total silence about how they view these issues and what they intend to do about the ones they think are the most critical.

Of course, this quickly gets deep into issues of corporate and commercial culture, so I won't go there - in any case it doesn't matter - what does matter is that if they want the inventory to move off the shelves they will have to say something and do a few things very soon, otherwise they will miss the boat - and there may not be a return trip. The reason is that they themselves have "upped the ante" by targeting the weak points of Epson's technology. I'm sure neither Epson nor HP are sitting back waiting for Canon to take over their markets. I believe that within the next six to eight months there will be strong market entries from both Epson and HP, which will be great for us consumers. I've decided that I'm just not going to rush myself into the next printer purchase. My 4800 is less than a year old, and I've decided to keep using it until I am truly conmvinced it is worthwhile replacing with whichever brand turns out best for my purposes - I have no brand loyalty whatsoever - it all depends on costs and results.

SRB_KS · « **Reply #170 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:47:18 am »

Hello all,

Just got my Canon IPF5000 today. First prints are amazing! It does have some annoying features (I don't like using the front panel), but in the end I love the prints (so far). Can someone tell me how to use cut sheets to print panos? I know that was mentioned. I can't find the "feeder section" from the main menu on the front panel to disable the roller attachment. I have a roller attachment on order...hope it shows up soon.

BTW, if anyone is trying to decide between the Epson 4800 and CanonIPF 5000, you can get test prints (of your own images) made on both printers at www.itsupplies.com for free. And no I'm not affliated with this company in any way, I stumbled onto their website looking for someone that could get me a test print from the Canon IPF5000.

I think once I get a good workflow figured out for the IPF5000 it is going to be an outstanding printer. I've been struggling a bit with the printer driver, media selection, where is the printer going to take the paper from, etc... but should get all its quirks figured out soon.

martinmitch · « **Reply #171 on:** July 19, 2006, 04:47:19 am »

Quote from: SRB_KS,Jul 19 2006, 06:47 AM

Hello all,

Just got my Canon IPF5000 today. First prints are amazing! It does have some annoying features (I don't like using the front panel), but in the end I love the prints (so far). Can someone tell me how to use cut sheets to print panos? I know that was mentioned. I can't find the "feeder section" from the main menu on the front panel to disable the roller attachment. I have a roller attachment on order...hope it shows up soon.

Hello SRB
Cut sheets are inserted into Canon iPF5000 via the top tray but from reading other entries on LLF the longest print is restricted to 24 inches.Using paper roll you can print longer prints.
You do not disable paper roll from printer controll panel [my experiance] it's done by iMagePrograf photo shop plug-in [File-Export] depending on the paper proflle chosen.
This printer knows from sensors paper roll is not attached.
Suggest spend couple of days reading all info on this printer plus manuel on one of the disc need slow confident approach because this ai'nt no epson printer like clone !!!
When you attach paper roll you might have to clean install canon sofware but definately get printer to record length and make of paper with a bar code.Only put on roll feed with a roll of paper,bar code then dismantle if you wish to print sheets of paper which enter via top tray.

Note;
`Discovered last night that paper profiles created using settings 1-5 allows one to use cassete to print in imagePrograff.

Bye Martin

martinmitch · « **Reply #172 on:** July 19, 2006, 04:56:59 am »

Quote from: MarkDS,Jul 18 2006, 01:49 PM

Martin, perhaps this was a rhetorical question, but nonetheless deserves being though about. It is - in my mind anyhow - truly perplexing how an extremely sophisticated, experienced and wealthy corporation like Canon could so effectively botch their entry to - what is for them - a new market niche that they obviously intended to take very seriously. This market niche is also sophisticated. People who buy these machines know what they're doing and are generally deliberate about their purchasing decisions.

Hello Mark
I agree with much of what you are saying and the silence from Canon is deafening on these issues many of us are raising in this forum concerning the iPF5000 printer.
If I had a Epson 4800 printer idear of buying this canon printer would not enter my mind the competition will respond.Ink jet printer models appear to improve in leaps every 18 months or so like chips without the fish!!

Bye
Martin

aussiephil · « **Reply #173 on:** July 19, 2006, 10:16:00 pm »

Martin,

as a new person to wide format printing and a total non epson user ever but a happy ipf5000 owner i have a couple of comments.

my work flow as a casual photographer who sells a few prints does not involve printing from PS so i can't directly comment on the plug-in issues but your issues seem to be more generic and not really plugin related.
Although for me the plugin failed to install on MS Vista using remote desktop so i gave up, will have to go back and have another go.

I personally use Qimage for all my printing tasks and have profiled all my paper stock with PFP.

Comments on your points inline below....

Quote

Hello.

I'm using the Canon iPf5000 - slowly to print images and beginning to make profiles using PrintfixPRO,problems are beginning to appear in the software supplied by Cannon.

Using imagePrograph Photoshop plug-in problems are.

1]The types of paper described in supplied print profiles are of limited use when choosing to use the cassete why this should happen is incredibaly shortsighted and lousy writting of software by Canon,it's near impossible to print a gloss type paper through cassete,most of the time the photoshop plug-in sends you to manual or paper-roll for paper insertion to printer,the same with other paper choices from supplied profiles.This has to be rectified by Canon otherwise the printer will not sell to the public.This problem rears its head yet again when using Photoshop and Print Management why is beyond belief!!!

The only paper type that seems to be not supported in the cassette is Gloss paper, i can see this will be a pain and i have yet to find a work around.
Just about everything else uses the MK ink anyway and it's just a matter of selecting the closest cassette paper type when feeding from it.
Experiments are starting to show which media types lay down more or less ink, i have some canvas that i actually use plain paper HQ setting with.

the media quide is a good starting point but i too wish it was more complete and gave indications of ink laydown for each type.

Quote

2]Often the printer will print the previous image when using imagePrograf unless you cancel that image before printing the current image.

Certainly not my experience with qimage, this sounds like a process step that needs to be completed that's not obvious, this is typical of Canon's instructions if it's missing.

Quote

3]Each time one powers up the printer it does a head cleaning cycle is this really neccessary?

Certainly NOT my experience and my printer will be on for days at a time with no printing and has been off for days as well, i have seen it do two head cleans both were quick, one at turn on and one after coming out of sleep mode. twice out of multiple cycles seems fair.

Quote

4]The most trying problem is when one tries to put paper into tray [top loader !] it works one time in five a problem that was evident back at the factory to any of
the technicians developing this printer.

Again not my experience, the trick is to ensure that the left hand guide is accurately positioned to the width of the media, this aids in keeping everything straight. iv'e suffer maybe 1 in 20 misfeeds and all due to rushing the feed. I am getting better though and managed to feed a number of 17" wide canvas sheets that were quite flexible without any feed problems last night.

Quote

These noted problems are extreme,for Canon to send a printer to market aimed at the proffesional printer is stupid and word travels fast about a printers failings,instead of its attributesv
but for all of these problems I will carry on using my Canon iPF5000.The colour prints I'm producing cannot be eqalled by any other inkjet printer in this class on the market today the colour reproduction is fantastic and detail is becoming more pronounced as I develope tricks to tease increasingly better prints out of this printer.Creating ones own paper profiles is the direction one should take with this printer unlike when using an Epson printer where many artists use existing profiles and then play with color management tools.Lazy push button injet art!!!!! for feeble galleries.

Searching of old posts on DPR show similar comments from new epson users, all printers seem to have little quirks.

People using these printers generally would be professionals and i would expect professionals to correctly colour profile the printer for their paper stock. no doubt the major papers will end up with generic profiles for the printer but the serious user should and will tweak anyway, so what's the issue with having to generate some profiles.
Like epson the canon will output good quality on their own brand paper with their profiles....mmmm not much difference there.

occasionally in qimage i forget to set the correct profile for the print and send a default sRGB profile, funny thing is that the actual output to friends i have shown these prints to is how nice they look, not "oh look at the slightly wrong colours". To me this says that the printer does a great job all on its own to convert a standard sRGB profile to the nominated paper type specified.

Quote

One question.

What experiance have other users of this printer had using Setting 1 to 5 and what influence do these settings have when creating paper profiles?

Me.
I'm a painter,printmaker and animater living in London U.K using a Powermac G5 Quad 6mb of ram,pair of viewsonic screens an old Epson 1290 printer using Lyson Fotonic ink in refillable cartridges and my wonderful new CanoniPF5000printer.Software mainly Photoshop CS2 plus some attachments and Maya 7 which is amazing to print rendered images from much softer and detailed than Photoshop.The Canon picks out very delicate changes in colour and tone gradation when printing from Maya 7 rendered images.Animated films are edited using Final Cut Pro 5 but that is another story I'm here for the ink jet printing knowledge passed on by individuals with far more experiance than me.

Thanks.
Martin Mitchell
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=70953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would also like to work out the 1-5 setting and i may get time to play this weekend, very remiss of Canon to not better document this.

Having bought this printer without the Epson/HP user experience i had no real expectation of usability.
I like the setting of paper type and size from the front panel, but i have turned of the mismatch warning as the printer is not in the same room as my workstation.
Otherwise i have found it simple and easy to use and get along with.

John S · « **Reply #174 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:07:48 pm »

All,

I am new to the forum, and also this is my first "real" printer, the ipf5000. I have to say i am very pleased both with the operation and esp. the print quality from my Canon. I looked at the 4800 and after careful consideration i decided on the Canon and i am not looking back.

I also am not rich, but i have spent tens of thousands of dollars on camera bodies and lenses, this printer was roughly $2100. w/ roll feeder USD. If it is not perfect, or without its short comings, is it the end of the earth?

Again, i am not trying to overstep my bounds but these things happen with new gear alll the time. With every new camera or new lens we all could go to a forum and find 30% of us folks slamming it as crap.

How many times do we find that a lot of the ones slamming the product do not even have it in their possesion? All i can say is if you are looking to purchase a new 17" printer, for what ever reason, the ipf5000 gives one great results. If you just bought an Epson 4800 6 months ago and you are here pointing out how crap the Canon is.... why? Go shoot some frames and print them on your Epson and have a nice day. Why turn it into rocket science?

We will all be long dead before our prints start to fade regardless of whether you have the 4800 or the ipf5000, so enjoy!

John

Quote

Martin,

as a new person to wide format printing and a total non epson user ever but a happy ipf5000 owner i have a couple of comments.

my work flow as a casual photographer who sells a few prints does not involve printing from PS so i can't directly comment on the plug-in issues but your issues seem to be more generic and not really plugin related.
Although for me the plugin failed to install on MS Vista using remote desktop so i gave up, will have to go back and have another go.

I personally use Qimage for all my printing tasks and have profiled all my paper stock with PFP.

Comments on your points inline below....
The only paper type that seems to be not supported in the cassette is Gloss paper, i can see this will be a pain and i have yet to find a work around.
Just about everything else uses the MK ink anyway and it's just a matter of selecting the closest cassette paper type when feeding from it.
Experiments are starting to show which media types lay down more or less ink, i have some canvas that i actually use plain paper HQ setting with.

the media quide is a good starting point but i too wish it was more complete and gave indications of ink laydown for each type.
Certainly not my experience with qimage, this sounds like a process step that needs to be completed that's not obvious, this is typical of Canon's instructions if it's missing.
Certainly NOT my experience and my printer will be on for days at a time with no printing and has been off for days as well, i have seen it do two head cleans both were quick, one at turn on and one after coming out of sleep mode. twice out of multiple cycles seems fair.

Again not my experience, the trick is to ensure that the left hand guide is accurately positioned to the width of the media, this aids in keeping everything straight. iv'e suffer maybe 1 in 20 misfeeds and all due to rushing the feed. I am getting better though and managed to feed a number of 17" wide canvas sheets that were quite flexible without any feed problems last night.
Searching of old posts on DPR show similar comments from new epson users, all printers seem to have little quirks.

People using these printers generally would be professionals and i would expect professionals to correctly colour profile the printer for their paper stock. no doubt the major papers will end up with generic profiles for the printer but the serious user should and will tweak anyway, so what's the issue with having to generate some profiles.
Like epson the canon will output good quality on their own brand paper with their profiles....mmmm not much difference there.

occasionally in qimage i forget to set the correct profile for the print and send a default sRGB profile, funny thing is that the actual output to friends i have shown these prints to is how nice they look, not "oh look at the slightly wrong colours". To me this says that the printer does a great job all on its own to convert a standard sRGB profile to the nominated paper type specified.
I would also like to work out the 1-5 setting and i may get time to play this weekend, very remiss of Canon to not better document this.

Having bought this printer without the Epson/HP user experience i had no real expectation of usability.
I like the setting of paper type and size from the front panel, but i have turned of the mismatch warning as the printer is not in the same room as my workstation.
Otherwise i have found it simple and easy to use and get along with.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=71218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #175 on:** July 19, 2006, 11:49:06 pm »

You've missed the point of this discussion - no-one is slamming anything as crap, and as far as I've read, none of the observations about the teething problems of the Canon printer were made in spite by owners of Epson 4800s. Most of the identification of problems came from new owners of the Canon IPF5000. One of the real values of a discussion forum such as this one is that it informs the manufacturers they have issues which they really need to address, and it provides useful information to prospective buyers. I think we all know nothing is perfect, but different issues mean different things to different people, so we may as well all know what they are and make our own decisions accordingly.

BernardLanguillier · « **Reply #176 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:24:50 am »

Most of us are putting high hopes in newly purchased products, and it is always annoying to find out that some issues have been overlooked by the designers...

Some things seem obvious for experienced users, but just didn't appear important enough for the design team to devote time and money to.

In my field (engineer software), it is overall very difficult to get an accurate representation of what users actually want, so that I find it interesting for Canon to get the chance to get free feedback from top class users about their new product. Problems should be discussed openly and this is what is being done in this thread.

It is true though that the discussion might look like it is over-stressing some issues of a product that still appears to be best in class, if not totally perfect yet.

Cheers,
Bernard

aussiephil · « **Reply #177 on:** July 20, 2006, 05:06:40 am »

i'm with Mark and Bernard.

Even my long winded reply to Martin was about the facts as i see them as a ipf5000 owner.

This thread has been generally constructive

Cheers
Phil

Mark D Segal · « **Reply #178 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:27:40 am »

Quote

Most of us are putting high hopes in newly purchased products, and it is always annoying to find out that some issues have been overlooked by the designers...

It is true though that the discussion might look like it is over-stressing some issues of a product that still appears to be best in class, if not totally perfect yet.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, just to provide context for my comments in this thread, I own and use an Epson 4800 and I had ordered a Canon IPF5000 primarily for ease of media switchability - the real Achilles-heel of the Epson X800 series. I was really looking forward to making the change in order to solve this problem once and for all. As I mentioned previously in this thread I cancelled the order because there emerged just too many "unknowns" and issues for someone who already owns a world-class machine such as the 4800.

In making this decision I also had the privilege of doing some direct comparisons between 4800 and IPF5000 prints on both Matte and Gloss media. It is not clear that the IPF5000 is overall "best in its class". Based on my limited sample of results, I would say it is best in some respects and no better in others. I shall be making more such comparisons over the coming weeks as circumstances permit to get a more reliable sample of outputs. So far what I have seen is that D-Max and rendering of three-quartertone detail is better from the IPF5000 on gloss media but not on Matte, because for matte the media and not the printer is the critical constraint. The IPF5000 seems no better than the 4800 at colour rendition in real world photographs (though it does have much more accurate blue in a test chart) and no better than the 4800 at reendering fine detail. In fact, the Epson may have a slight edge here, but I want to test that issue further. I was also disappointed to read that despite its 12 inks the red and yellow gamut of the IPF5000 is not as good as Epson's K3. This is possibly a limitation, just as one example, to those doing urban photography in places like Thailand and China where deep reds and yellows abound and gamut compression is already an issue with the Epson printer.

martinmitch · « **Reply #179 on:** July 20, 2006, 03:30:05 pm »

Hello Ausiphil

"Comments on your points inline below....
The only paper type that seems to be not supported in the cassette is Gloss paper, i can see this will be a pain and i have yet to find a work around.
Just about everything else uses the MK ink anyway and it's just a matter of selecting the closest cassette paper type when feeding from it.
Experiments are starting to show which media types lay down more or less ink, i have some canvas that i actually use plain paper HQ setting with.

the media quide is a good starting point but i too wish it was more complete and gave indications of ink laydown for each type".

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I'm using Powermac G5 and OSX so my printing experiance will be different to you but tells us about your printing paper choice and which paper profile you choose---what the result looks like also I'm keen to hear about your experiments and idears about ink laydown etc'.How you work with PrintFixPro and the results once printing with CanoniPF5000.--Thanks

The problems I have outlined in previous articles are common problems outlined on a number of websites and do not revolve around how I operate my printer but some can be worked around by operating printer in different ways,this thread is helping me to understand these 'workarounds'.

Hopefully Canon will hear of these operating problems and rectify them for future users of this printer , as an artist this printer suits my artwork because I can print flat forms of primary colour unlike the Epson 4800 which has a more limited primary colour range.

Hope to hear about your canon iPF5000 printing experiances in more detail soon

Thanks
Martin Mitchell

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