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Author Topic: EVF  (Read 31645 times)

Paul2660

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Re: EVF
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2016, 02:57:54 pm »

With EVF, useage, all Fuji or Sony, mainly Fuji, the lag does at times become problematic, for me, especially on birds.  The movement in the EVF is always just a bit behind reality, and Optical is better for me. 

I will say that Fuji has improved the EVF with the X-T2 over even the Pro2, and the lag is not as noticeable. 

Paul C
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SZRitter

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Re: EVF lag vs OVF mirror flipping lag
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2016, 09:14:33 am »

What I am comaring is the time lag between when the scene you want is in front of the camera and what the sensor sees.
The effect of mirror-up is a delay between when you press the shutter release and when the mirror is up so the exposure can start: about 40ms is the lowest value I have seen claimed. With an EVF there is less of a press-to-shutter delay – just to close the shutter curtains, and not even that with electronic shutter or electronic FCS – BUT the EVF lag means that you are pressing the shutter release slightly later.

Doh! You got me, I completely blanked on the mirror having to come up first.

So, going off the average human response time is 215ms, 6ms is barely, if even, visible. Since pretty much everything I shoot is in a predictable line or static, it's never been a real issue. I'll say, when I demoed the Fuji X-E1 (or however they write that), it was horrible for perceiving lag. I went Olympus at the time because I couldn't really see it. I'm guessing the newer EVFs would basically disappear, and when I have the spare money, I plan to find out.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: EVF
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2016, 12:30:23 am »

team,

I keep reading praise about the latest generation of EVFs, so I tried those from Sony (a7rII and 6300), Olympus (Pen-F) and Fuji (x-T1 I guess) and... I don't know what to say...

In my book the shooting experience remains just awful compared to that of a good OVF.

Yes, it is usable, but I am at a loss why so many folks are willing to go for those with their current specs.

I must getting old real quick. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I have had this A7Rii for the past few days, and I agree with you 100% everytime I take it out on street shooting, and capturing the moments type of shooting which I do a good chunk of.
BUT, I purchased it for its still life, architectural, lanscape waiting to happen moments. And in this regard it is pretty great. And the sensor is just fantastic.

What I have come to conclude is that the EVF like A7RII tools are more like using an electronic device first, then the camera is integrated into the electronic system. The OVF is a mechanical tool as a camera first, and is assisted and enhanced by the electronics.  So when you need a REAL camera, you need a mechanical instantly active system. When you don't, you can boot up the other device.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 02:23:27 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Telecaster

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Re: EVF
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2016, 01:12:07 am »

IMO the only REAL cameras are those with direct view. Like rangefinders, or the Kodak Brownie I used as a four-year-old. No time lag, whether from EVF or flipping mirror.

-Dave-

[Note: I may or may not agree with the above statement.]
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Rob C

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Re: EVF
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2016, 07:35:35 am »

IMO the only REAL cameras are those with direct view. Like rangefinders, or the Kodak Brownie I used as a four-year-old. No time lag, whether from EVF or flipping mirror.

-Dave-

[Note: I may or may not agree with the above statement.]


Perfect street shooter, then: ambiguous!

Rob

Robert Roaldi

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Re: EVF
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2016, 07:54:05 am »

Just to add my 2 cents about something I've seen mentioned in EVF vs OVF discussions, people often mention how the scene through an OVF is more representative of reality, more honest colours, etc. Who cares, I would say. The only colours that matter are the ones that appear in the final file. All I want from a viewfinder is to allow me to compose. If I want to look at the real scene, can't I just lower the camera from my eye and look at it? One feature of an EVF, showing the histogram BEFORE taking the picture, has emerged for me as the most important aspect of these things. The fact that the image I see in the EVF doesn't exactly match the scene as seen with the naked eye is of no consequence to me. Obviously, others feel differently but how much of that is just habit, I wonder.

As another contributor has mentioned (I also use an Oly E-M1), EVF lag and blackout are quickly becoming things of the past (borrow an Nikon V2 and do some sports shooting), and it was never anymore than a technological problem anyway. Television cameramen have been using LCD viewfinders while covering high-speed sports action for decades and the viewfinder lag never seemed to impair their work. Early EVFs had terrible lag, it's true, but early Toyotas weren't very good either; times change.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 08:37:44 am by Robert Roaldi »
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scooby70

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Re: EVF
« Reply #66 on: November 05, 2016, 09:25:59 am »

One big plus for EVF's is that I don't have to obsess about crud and creepy crawlies in the OVF any more.

Heaven :D
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Rob C

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Re: EVF
« Reply #67 on: November 05, 2016, 10:09:53 am »

One big plus for EVF's is that I don't have to obsess about crud and creepy crawlies in the OVF any more.

Heaven :D


Are you photographer or naturalist?

I've had OVFs since the Nikon F was king; swapped screens more times that I remember and everything could be cleaned - if it got dirty. I could also focus very accurately with that split-image... today, even with the magnifier welded to both digital bodies, the screen itself is very unsuited to assessing sharpness. A tiny green dot below and out of sight of the image is no substitute for a split-image device you can use and see at the right moment. That's why I now have to depend on af, making most of my lenses pretty dodgy for me to use, especially as I like to work very open. A ring of microprisms was an intrusion: only the split-image, please! Maybe that lack of proper screen was Nikon's greatest oversight on producing its Df. I think I could well have been tempted, had it had that single facility; I was already quite keen, but as an overall advance on my status quo, not convincing enough to buy.

Rob

nma

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Re: EVF
« Reply #68 on: November 05, 2016, 10:49:11 am »

Rob,

I am old enough to remember the days of the OVF and microprism. It was nice to get that image to snap into focus with the microprism or a split-image range finder. But, the EVF used in combination with 14x magnification of the focus spot, as available on the E-M1 and other OLY bodies, is even better. You can set your camera so that after auto focus you can at your option touch up the focus by turning the focus ring. As soon as you touch the focus ring the image snaps to 14x (or whatever you set) magnification, filling the EVF, making critical focusing easy. This can be used in low light, something much more difficult with an OVF.  I have not seen any system that is more accurate. Just sayin. 

There are a lot of opinions expressed with great certainty that just aren't true. One wonders if these folks just tried an EVF while standing at the counter in a camera store without understanding how to optimize the experience?
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scooby70

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Re: EVF
« Reply #69 on: November 05, 2016, 11:10:36 am »


Are you photographer or naturalist?

I've had OVFs since the Nikon F was king; swapped screens more times that I remember and everything could be cleaned - if it got dirty. I could also focus very accurately with that split-image... today, even with the magnifier welded to both digital bodies, the screen itself is very unsuited to assessing sharpness. A tiny green dot below and out of sight of the image is no substitute for a split-image device you can use and see at the right moment. That's why I now have to depend on af, making most of my lenses pretty dodgy for me to use, especially as I like to work very open. A ring of microprisms was an intrusion: only the split-image, please! Maybe that lack of proper screen was Nikon's greatest oversight on producing its Df. I think I could well have been tempted, had it had that single facility; I was already quite keen, but as an overall advance on my status quo, not convincing enough to buy.

Rob

Are you serious?
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Rob C

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Re: EVF
« Reply #70 on: November 05, 2016, 01:14:45 pm »

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: EVF
« Reply #71 on: November 05, 2016, 02:36:33 pm »

.....people often mention how the scene through an OVF is more representative of reality, more honest colours, etc. Who cares, I would say. The only colours that matter are the ones that appear in the final file. All I want from a viewfinder is to allow me to compose. If I want to look at the real scene, can't I just lower the camera from my eye and look at it? One feature of an EVF, showing the histogram BEFORE taking the picture, has emerged for me as the most important aspect of these things. The fact that the image I see in the EVF doesn't exactly match the scene as seen with the naked eye is of no consequence to me. Obviously, others feel differently but how much of that is just habit, I wonder.

I agree, and to add I want to be able to see if the image is sharp. Colors is the last thing on my mind. In fact a cool feature would be to see the EVF in Black and white, as an option! This would be like taking a orange filter to see contrast when I did in the 4x5 times shooting with some of the greats I had pleasure to do so with(sorry, it brings back memories). 

So, ya, the EVF is fantastic. I turn off auto preview. This makes things much smoother.
(Side note: on the A7RII, I need to use manual screens to save battery and not have a glowing screen on. This means monitor is set to Off.  I wish the preview could be set to "auto-dumped" to the monitor vs manually pressing a button to engage and disengage. They need a fw revise for that).

And what NMA mentions about the adaptation to the experience couldn't be more true. You have to accept it will be a different animal than what you are used to, and give it some patients with practice.
But, if you are sneaking a public shot, or trying for that spur of moment instant snap, you have a better chance with a mechanical device. But I have much training to do, its only been a week with not a lot of usage time. I have watched a lot of videos :-)
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: EVF
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2016, 04:07:33 pm »

I agree, and to add I want to be able to see if the image is sharp. Colors is the last thing on my mind. In fact a cool feature would be to see the EVF in Black and white, as an option! This would be like taking a orange filter to see contrast when I did in the 4x5 times shooting with some of the greats I had pleasure to do so with(sorry, it brings back memories). 

I believe that you can set the camera to capture RAW, but then set picture mode to monotone (or whatever the menu calls it). This shows the scene in the EVF (and LCD) in B&W but will record RAW to the card. For someone who lost the ability to pre-visualize in B&W (assuming I once actually had this ability) this is a nice way to shoot B&W. But having the RAW file recorded means that you can later use the final image in colour or convert to B&W in post. Indeed, this ability to see the scene in monotone, but capture RAW, seems to me to be a really neat feature of EVFs, and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more.
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Robert

Telecaster

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Re: EVF
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2016, 05:47:34 pm »

I believe that you can set the camera to capture RAW, but then set picture mode to monotone (or whatever the menu calls it). This shows the scene in the EVF (and LCD) in B&W but will record RAW to the card. For someone who lost the ability to pre-visualize in B&W (assuming I once actually had this ability) this is a nice way to shoot B&W. But having the RAW file recorded means that you can later use the final image in colour or convert to B&W in post. Indeed, this ability to see the scene in monotone, but capture RAW, seems to me to be a really neat feature of EVFs, and I'm surprised it's not mentioned more.

Absolutely! This is one of my favorite EVF features. With the Panasonic GX8 I often shoot in monochrome even when color is my main objective. I can see color by looking directly at my scene/subject, then judge b&w potential by looking through the finder. Sometimes I'll go with the b&w JPEG, sometimes I'll do a b&w conversion from RAW and other times a color conversion from RAW. Since the GX8 can re-process RAWs internally (into JPEGs) sometimes I'll use it as an alternate RAW converter.

-Dave-
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: EVF
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2016, 07:31:45 pm »

I'm not sure if Sony already does, but their tech in surveillance cameras for B&W is pretty amazing, visibility and focus on subjects in extremely low lux light works very good.
So perhaps EVF's can trump on such tech to max out focus ability in night/low light.

I was having trouble with the A7RII in focusing at night and some subjects. If the camera isn't able to do something, I realized don't try and force the same repeat way to have it focus. You have to change the area, or it just fails. It doesn't work the same way as Canon where you can do a couple focusing attempts and 2 or 3 and it gets it.
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chez

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Re: EVF
« Reply #75 on: November 06, 2016, 08:14:52 am »


Are you photographer or naturalist?

I've had OVFs since the Nikon F was king; swapped screens more times that I remember and everything could be cleaned - if it got dirty. I could also focus very accurately with that split-image... today, even with the magnifier welded to both digital bodies, the screen itself is very unsuited to assessing sharpness. A tiny green dot below and out of sight of the image is no substitute for a split-image device you can use and see at the right moment. That's why I now have to depend on af, making most of my lenses pretty dodgy for me to use, especially as I like to work very open. A ring of microprisms was an intrusion: only the split-image, please! Maybe that lack of proper screen was Nikon's greatest oversight on producing its Df. I think I could well have been tempted, had it had that single facility; I was already quite keen, but as an overall advance on my status quo, not convincing enough to buy.

Rob

Split screen is fine as long as your subject was always in the middle of the frame...but if your subject is away from the middle...you are SH*T out of luck having to focus and recompose.
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Telecaster

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Re: EVF
« Reply #76 on: November 06, 2016, 10:52:16 am »

Split screen is fine as long as your subject was always in the middle of the frame...but if your subject is away from the middle...you are SH*T out of luck having to focus and recompose.

In the interest of being a contrarian, because almost all approaches have merit, focus & recompose is a skill you can develop. If you're using a rangefinder and you want (or need due to light levels) both shallow-ish DOF and an off-center subject, focus & recompose is what you must do. With practice you can get good at it.

That said, are EVFs an advancement because they allow precise focus almost anywhere in the frame? Yes. Will this stop me from using my rangefinders (and manual focus SLRs)? No.

-Dave-
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chez

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Re: EVF
« Reply #77 on: November 06, 2016, 06:41:29 pm »

In the interest of being a contrarian, because almost all approaches have merit, focus & recompose is a skill you can develop. If you're using a rangefinder and you want (or need due to light levels) both shallow-ish DOF and an off-center subject, focus & recompose is what you must do. With practice you can get good at it.

That said, are EVFs an advancement because they allow precise focus almost anywhere in the frame? Yes. Will this stop me from using my rangefinders (and manual focus SLRs)? No.

-Dave-

Yes...but the way Rob stated that he uses split screen focus because he can nail focus right at the moment implies the subject needs to be in the middle of the image. You cannot do focus and recompose "right at the moment".
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ripgriffith

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Re: EVF
« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2016, 07:32:31 pm »

OVF's are generally (low light would be a case when they're not) better for evaluating the scene. EVF's are always better for evaluating capture (exposure, focus, white balance).
Unless I am shooting something requiring a "decisive moment", I use my unaided eye to evaluate the scene and my viewfinder, either ovf or evf, to evaluate my cropping, then either the evf or the lcd to evaluate the capture, then I shoot.
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: EVF
« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2016, 09:41:52 pm »

"decisive moments" are planned and waiting to happen. But you still need to be quick on the draw for the instance at time in can happen in, and for that a slapping mechanical camera might be the one to go with. But if I had a few chances of getting it, it wouldn't stop me from trying it out with the EVF/A7RII
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