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Author Topic: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow  (Read 8210 times)

Robert Ardill

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Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« on: March 25, 2016, 05:47:09 am »

Hi,

I would like to use C1 to develop my photos but want to continue to use LR (and Photoshop) for everything else.  The main reason that I want to continue using Lightroom is that I have a very large number of photos that have already been developed in Lightroom, catalogued etc, and changing over fully to C1 is just too big a job, especially as some tagging (like color labels) isn't carried across.

I've read up recent posts on this topic and I haven't found anything that would work well for me (for example, I don't want to have to export the dng image and then have to re-import the tiff into LR).

The best way I've managed so far is as follows:

- In LR, I tag the image with Blue to show that it has been developed in LR, in Purple to show that it has been developed in C1
- I then Show in Explorer and open the image in C1 by double-clicking on it (I've set C1 as the default application for dng files ... I'm using Windows). So I am editing the original dng image.
- After development I Edit in Photoshop (which I want to do anyway, for things like denoise, sharpening, etc). This causes the tiff to be created in the same folder.
- I edit in PS then save the file.
- LR sometimes automatically sees the image, but if not I sync the folder.

This all works pretty well although it certainly isn't very elegant.  Has anyone found a better way of doing this?

Cheers

Robert
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2016, 12:05:31 am »

This is a follow-on question. How does it work when Proprietary raw format files are processed in C1 Pro, and then imported into Lightroom with or without a DNG conversion?

Is what you have done to the raw file in C1 "seen" and "respected" by Lightroom's ACR engine or ignored?

What happens if you convert the C1 processed file to DNG?

I intend to do my own experiments and tests  but am asking for some input from others who have tried this already. Using C1 v9.1 and LrCC2015.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2016, 08:08:36 am »

This is a follow-on question. How does it work when Proprietary raw format files are processed in C1 Pro, and then imported into Lightroom with or without a DNG conversion?

Is what you have done to the raw file in C1 "seen" and "respected" by Lightroom's ACR engine or ignored?

What happens if you convert the C1 processed file to DNG?

I intend to do my own experiments and tests  but am asking for some input from others who have tried this already. Using C1 v9.1 and LrCC2015.

No changes to the raw files made in one converter are seen in the other.  The only things that are carried over between LR and C1 are the star ratings (not even color ratings or pick/reject flag).  Why the color ratings are not carried over is a mystery to me as it shouldn't be rocket-science.

Robert
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john beardsworth

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2016, 08:43:25 am »

Why the color ratings are not carried over is a mystery to me as it shouldn't be rocket-science.

Colours and flags are not standard IPTC fields. Colours are saved externally as a text string, and what you see as a green label may actually be written as "Green" or something as arbitrary as "Urgent" or "Review" (see Lr's Metadata > Color Label Set for some options), so C1 would need to be able to figure out whatever text it finds. Flags aren't even written out to metadata, so it would have to be cleverer still.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2016, 12:28:32 pm »

Colours and flags are not standard IPTC fields. Colours are saved externally as a text string, and what you see as a green label may actually be written as "Green" or something as arbitrary as "Urgent" or "Review" (see Lr's Metadata > Color Label Set for some options), so C1 would need to be able to figure out whatever text it finds. Flags aren't even written out to metadata, so it would have to be cleverer still.

Thanks ... I guess integration with LR isn't a major concern for Phase One (otherwise it would be easy enough for them to translate from the (non-IPTC-standard xmp file to their own, and vice versa).  Equally, it clearly is no concern at all for Adobe as they could also facilitate the exchange of information.  After all, DxO do a decent enough job, if I recall.

It's a pity that Capture One files are not in XML format as this would have made it relatively easy to write a program to copy and translate fields of this kind from one raw converter to the other.

Robert
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Ellis Vener

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2016, 03:03:21 pm »

Thanks ... I guess integration with LR isn't a major concern for Phase One (otherwise it would be easy enough for them to translate from the (non-IPTC-standard xmp file to their own, and vice versa).  Equally, it clearly is no concern at all for Adobe as they could also facilitate the exchange of information.  After all, DxO do a decent enough job, if I recall.

It's a pity that Capture One files are not in XML format as this would have made it relatively easy to write a program to copy and translate fields of this kind from one raw converter to the other.

Robert


It comes from the management at two companies stuck in a mindset which does not allow them to see that allowing customers to use a combination of tools creates a larger pool of clients for both companies. They think they have to compete with each other (a zero sum game), a model that doesn't fit how we actually see and want to leverage the core strengths of both to our advantage. In other words, they arent fighting with each other so much as fighting us.
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2016, 04:02:59 pm »

Thanks ... I guess integration with LR isn't a major concern for Phase One (otherwise it would be easy enough for them to translate from the (non-IPTC-standard xmp file to their own, and vice versa).  Equally, it clearly is no concern at all for Adobe as they could also facilitate the exchange of information.  After all, DxO do a decent enough job, if I recall.

It's a pity that Capture One files are not in XML format as this would have made it relatively easy to write a program to copy and translate fields of this kind from one raw converter to the other.

Robert

Capture one can sync all metadata to and/or from XML sidecars.

fdisilvestro

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2016, 05:51:17 pm »

Why the color ratings are not carried over is a mystery to me as it shouldn't be rocket-science.

Robert

It is not possible to carry over color ratings from LR to C1 because of the way they were implemented by adobe, not just because they are not standard IPTC fields as John mentions.

The color labels in LR are just text labels with no structure. They are not even stored in the catalog and there is no way to guarantee integrity between them in a set of images, even in the same catalog. On the other hand, if your text is "Green" then the same text is written to the xmp (xmp:Label = Green) and in the image record in the LR catalog (table: Adobe_images; field: colorLabels)

The thing is, you can have your labels set up as: green, yellow, red, etc. and tag some photos, then change the labels to: keeper, to delete, print, etc. and tag another set of photos. If you check the database or xmp files, you will find some images with red, yellow or green and another set of images with keeper, to delete or print. Moreover, I can then change the order of the colors from the LR standard 6=red & 7=yellow to 6=yellow & 7 red. If I then check the metadata in the LR catalogue or XMP file, I will just see red or yellow, how in this world would I be able to tell if that was 6 or 7? It is impossible.

In the case of C1, the color labels are structured data (not user editable) and are stored in the C1 catalog as codes (for example: ZCOLOR_TAG_INDEX=3 instead of colorlabel=yellow)

On another note, doing this exercise I might have encountered a bug in C1 version 9.1, which I tested on two computers running windows 7/64

If anybody can confirm by doing this:
- Create a new catalogue in C1
- Import one raw file (no adjustments, no external metadata)
- Assign a color label to the image in C1
- Now select File-> Load Metadata

Here I get the following warning (as in the attached image): "Metadata conflicts have been detected on a variant of image xxxx ...."

There should not be variants and the only place where the metadata was changed (color label) was in C1.

Looking at the data in the C1 catalog, there are three records in the table that holds metadata information for the variants instead of one (this is just an empirical observation, there might be valid reasons to have more than one record at this stage) and the data for color labels is different between them.
   

Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2016, 05:54:35 pm »

Capture one can sync all metadata to and/or from XML sidecars.

Not exactly all, from LR.  As mentioned above, color labels are not recognized.

For example the LR sidecar shows:
   xmp:Label="Yellow"
   xmp:Rating="3"

And C1 imports the Rating correctly, but not the Label.  The metadata tag in C1 for color is Color Tag.  If you open a raw file in C1 that has been tagged with a Yellow Label (say) and then open it into Photoshop, the Label tag is set to none in the metadata (so C1 doesn't even pass through the Label tag).  What's worse is that Photoshop doesn't recognize the Color Tag (or C1 doesn't export it) so that the Color Tag is only visible in C1 (or other plug-ins/programs that recognize this tag, I guess).

Robert
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2016, 06:17:02 pm »

It is not possible to carry over color ratings from LR to C1 because of the way they were implemented by adobe, not just because they are not standard IPTC fields as John mentions.
   

When it comes to the interpretation of standards it's not so clear. Adobe uses the xmp standard which they created and are pushing and for whatever reason they have chosen the Label tag for color information. Of course, xmp being editable you can change it from Yellow to Cabbage if you want, but that doesn't help to get the information across to C1.

It would be very easy for C1 to recognise the Label tag and translate it to their Color Tag and pass it on to Adobe programs (like Photoshop) back as the Label tag ... but they have chosen not to do so, which means that we can't get color information between the two programs, so that is that for now.  Perhaps if enough people asked Phase One for this feature it might get into a future release.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2016, 06:24:21 pm »

Another issue I have with the LR/C1 integration is the way that C1 stores adjustments.  I do not want to use catalogues and do want to use sessions because I just want C1 for the raw processing, not for the image organisation.

The issue is that the .cos and .comask files are not stored with the image but in a subfolder of the Capture One folder which is in the image folder.  That means that if I want to send just one raw file with some edits to a colleague for further processing, I have to include the Capture One folder ... and remove all the other stuff that isn't required for this particular image (like the previews, focus masks, thumbnails and other image adjustments).

The same thing happens even if the raw file is a dng file ... C1 doesn't store the adjustments in the dng file but still uses .cos files.

Is there any way around this?  It's really quite a problem for me, unfortunately.

Robert
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2016, 06:44:32 pm »

Use File->Pack as EIP (available only in sessions, not in catalogs) and it will create a file with the raw image plus adjustments (analog to DNG) which you can then import in another session

dchew

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2016, 10:32:32 am »

Hi,

I would like to use C1 to develop my photos but want to continue to use LR (and Photoshop) for everything else. 
...

Robert

I am in the midst of struggling with the same thing. I have three camera systems: Leica Monochrom which I prefer LR processing, Sony which my preference depends on the image, and IQ180 files that are better in C1 (especially when LCC's are applied). Volume-wise the Sony images are the majority, but keeper-wise the IQ180 files are ~ 50% of what goes into the master catalog.

I keep going back and forth, but at the moment I'm thinking the best for me is to import into temporary or "WIP" LR catalogs and highlight the images I want to process using C1. Then round trip through C1, process out to PS, and finally import the tiff into my LR master catalog. Other images that I think process fine in LR would also get exported to the LR master catalog.

I can use collections in the WIP catalogs to document what went out to C1 and what went to the master catalog directly (and perhaps colors as you do).

Dave
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2016, 08:51:25 am »

I am in the midst of struggling with the same thing. I have three camera systems: Leica Monochrom which I prefer LR processing, Sony which my preference depends on the image, and IQ180 files that are better in C1 (especially when LCC's are applied). Volume-wise the Sony images are the majority, but keeper-wise the IQ180 files are ~ 50% of what goes into the master catalog.

I keep going back and forth, but at the moment I'm thinking the best for me is to import into temporary or "WIP" LR catalogs and highlight the images I want to process using C1. Then round trip through C1, process out to PS, and finally import the tiff into my LR master catalog. Other images that I think process fine in LR would also get exported to the LR master catalog.

I can use collections in the WIP catalogs to document what went out to C1 and what went to the master catalog directly (and perhaps colors as you do).

Dave

Hi Dave ... I've only just seen your post, sorry :(

It is even more annoying with multiple cameras when one camera is better in one converter and another in a different converter.  I also have this problem as I have a lot of 1DS/1DSIII images that seem better in C1, while like you I find that with A7RII images it's image-dependent.

I always select the images in LR, so I do a quick development there.  If I'm not too happy with the results I will then try the image with C1.

One thing that really annoyed me was the way the C1 creates multiple TIFFs (one every time the image is rendered).  I've gotten over this by using the Export feature instead, so I can just zap all of the TIFFs from time-to-time.  I normally keep my TIFFs in a different folder to the raw images anyway, so this doesn't bother me too much (I always go to Photoshop and save the TIFF from there).

Cheers,

Robert
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dchew

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2016, 09:19:36 am »

Yes for some reason I struggle with C1's spot healing, so I end up at least doing that in PS all the time and finally saving the created tiff via PS.

Dave
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Manoli

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2016, 09:35:10 am »

@ Dave & Robert

Perhaps I've misunderstood your dilemmas, but from a quick read of this topic I'd respectfully suggest that you visit a recent thread I started on integrating C1 with Lr (or rather turning C1 into a subset of Lr).

I use Lr  for everything,
Culling, sorting, ranking and DAM is all done in Lr
I use a catalog in Lr but only 'sessions' in C1
When the occasion calls for it I selectively use C1 for tethering and/or raw conversion..
If I need to I go to Ps, I do so directly from C1 when that is the converter of choice.

This system now allows me to keep C1 processed files and their edits distinct from Lr,  yet can be revisited at any time. Keeping it all within Lr, allows you to use the other Lr modules (Library, Print, Map, Web etc) without having to switch between apps.

The end result (raw conversion) is imported into the Lr catalog either by doing a 'sync folder' or using a watched folder.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
This can also be used with other converters such as Iridient Developer - you're not restricted to C1 only.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2016, 09:41:55 am by Manoli »
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2016, 11:09:54 am »

@ Dave & Robert

Perhaps I've misunderstood your dilemmas, but from a quick read of this topic I'd respectfully suggest that you visit a recent thread I started on integrating C1 with Lr (or rather turning C1 into a subset of Lr).

I use Lr  for everything,
Culling, sorting, ranking and DAM is all done in Lr
I use a catalog in Lr but only 'sessions' in C1
When the occasion calls for it I selectively use C1 for tethering and/or raw conversion..
If I need to I go to Ps, I do so directly from C1 when that is the converter of choice.

This system now allows me to keep C1 processed files and their edits distinct from Lr,  yet can be revisited at any time. Keeping it all within Lr, allows you to use the other Lr modules (Library, Print, Map, Web etc) without having to switch between apps.

The end result (raw conversion) is imported into the Lr catalog either by doing a 'sync folder' or using a watched folder.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
This can also be used with other converters such as Iridient Developer - you're not restricted to C1 only.

Thanks ... this could be useful, except that I don't want to have a copy of the raw file.  I want C1 to work on the original image. Is there any way that this could be set up?

Thanks

Robert
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Manoli

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2016, 11:40:43 am »

Thanks ... this could be useful, except that I don't want to have a copy of the raw file.  I want C1 to work on the original image. Is there any way that this could be set up?

I'm not sure I understand the question. If you mean 'can C1 work on only one version (original) of the *.arw file' - then the answer is yes, but you'll loose the ability to have all edits separate and distinct .

Secondly, if you keep both C1 and Lr conversions in the same directory/folder then C1 will pick up on ALL the raw files in that directory. You may want that, I didn't. The whole point was to have the ability to select a single or multiple files of your choosing and to then keep them distinct from Lr but within the original directory structure until final output , at which point the output *.tiff files are imported back into the Lr Catalogue and, should you so wish, the C1 copy sub-folders are deleted.

The other alternative is to make an export preset and copy all raw files to a dedicated C1 folder of your choosing, and then set the output to a Lightroom 'hot' folder. IMO, not advisable - I wanted to keep the original Lr directory structure and not mix 'n match!
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2016, 11:54:14 am »

I'm not sure I understand the question. If you mean 'can C1 work on only one version (original) of the *.arw file' - then the answer is yes, but you'll loose the ability to have all edits separate and distinct .

Secondly, if you keep both C1 and Lr conversions in the same directory/folder then C1 will pick up on ALL the raw files in that directory. You may want that, I didn't. The whole point was to have the ability to select a single or multiple files of your choosing and to then keep them distinct from Lr but within the original directory structure until final output , at which point the output *.tiff files are imported back into the Lr Catalogue and, should you so wish, the C1 copy sub-folders are deleted.

The other alternative is to make an export preset and copy all raw files to a dedicated C1 folder of your choosing, and then set the output to a Lightroom 'hot' folder. IMO, not advisable - I wanted to keep the original Lr directory structure and not mix 'n match!

I think the way I'm using it works fine actually.  I Show in Explorer from LR and open it in C1.  Once developed I Export to Photoshop and then save the TIFF to the directory of my choice (I don't keep raws and tiffs in the same folders).

If I wish I can develop in both LR and C1 and the edits will be kept separate. 

The only downside is having to go through Explorer, but it doesn't take any more time than going into a plug-in (it's just Show in Explorer and double-click the file because I've set the default program for raw files to be C1).

C1 will find all of the files in the directory, but that's OK ... it just means that the cache directories need to be deleted from time to time, and this can be automated.

Cheers

Robert
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dchew

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Re: Advice on how to integrate C1 into a Lightroom workflow
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2016, 05:05:29 pm »

Thank you Manoli,
I'm curious because it sounds like your workflow is similar to what I've settled on; you use sessions, and I think I see why but I have a few questions:
  • I am using LR like you. Import all the files, select the "keepers" that need to go through C1. Do you create a new session every time go into C1 from a LR folder, or do you create one "WIP" session in C1 for working all images that get exported back into LR?
  • When you port over the raw images into C1, what do you do? Copy them first or just open C1 and select the file names you want in their current LR folder location? In order to do that I would need some sort of flag in LR that C1 recognizes so I know which files to pull in.

@ Dave & Robert

Perhaps I've misunderstood your dilemmas, but from a quick read of this topic I'd respectfully suggest that you visit a recent thread I started on integrating C1 with Lr (or rather turning C1 into a subset of Lr).

I use Lr  for everything,
Culling, sorting, ranking and DAM is all done in Lr
I use a catalog in Lr but only 'sessions' in C1
When the occasion calls for it I selectively use C1 for tethering and/or raw conversion..
If I need to I go to Ps, I do so directly from C1 when that is the converter of choice.

This system now allows me to keep C1 processed files and their edits distinct from Lr,  yet can be revisited at any time. Keeping it all within Lr, allows you to use the other Lr modules (Library, Print, Map, Web etc) without having to switch between apps.

The end result (raw conversion) is imported into the Lr catalog either by doing a 'sync folder' or using a watched folder.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
This can also be used with other converters such as Iridient Developer - you're not restricted to C1 only.
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