Any pro using formable HMI lighting?

[yashima]

Recently I had a chance to shoot a (still) portrait session with some old Elinchrom 575 HMI units. It was a pleasant surprise, the shoot felt a lot more calming/relaxing. Having the scene permanently lit does give you a bit more of creative freedom, your eyes see more I guess.

I'm now contemplating an all-HMI set up and would really like to hear your experience. I'm mostly interested in formable HMIs, HMI unit that can use traditional light modifiers so I can shape it in different ways just like strobe lighting (so that rules out Arri and the like I guess). I've seen a lot of still-video combo shoots with one or two HMI as main lights (mostly Briese Focus and Bron Para), however I have yet seen complex 5-6 lights set-up (both still life and portrait/fashion) that use HMI. Obviously the cost is quite prohibitive, but does it even make sense to use HMI for such application?

Love to hear your thoughts.

[Christoph B.]

A friend of mine works with HMI lights for videoshoots and as much as I like the quality of these lights the heat becomes a real issue. When you're working in a closed or small room it gets really hot really fast, much faster than with studio flashes (because of that I doubt you can use all light modifiers with the 575) - and those HMI lights really like to suck power.

The main problem I see for medium and large format applications is the lack of brightness - though they seem really bright, they are very weak compared to even cheap flash solutions - I think I read somewhere that the Elinchrom 575 could be compared to a 150Ws flash - which isn't much, especially for MF.

If you can use a tripod and if you have non-moving subjects that's perfectly fine - otherwise I'd suggest you stay with strobes.

[Chris Barrett]

I had a pair of Joker 800s from K5600.  You can get an adapter for them that allows them to take Profoto accessories (as long as whatever modifier can handle the heat).  In the end, though, for architecture... I just found my strobe to be much more powerful, versatile and easier to work with.

I do love constant lighting for some portrait work I've done.  In fact, I've been shooting that all on the RED, so we don't have to "click" photos, we just put a person out there at 24 frames per second and pull the individual still after we've hit a good pose/gesture.  Has worked great and much less stressful for the subject.

-CB

[UlfKrentz]

Recently I had a chance to shoot a (still) portrait session with some old Elinchrom 575 HMI units. It was a pleasant surprise, the shoot felt a lot more calming/relaxing. Having the scene permanently lit does give you a bit more of creative freedom, your eyes see more I guess.

I'm now contemplating an all-HMI set up and would really like to hear your experience. I'm mostly interested in formable HMIs, HMI unit that can use traditional light modifiers so I can shape it in different ways just like strobe lighting (so that rules out Arri and the like I guess). I've seen a lot of still-video combo shoots with one or two HMI as main lights (mostly Briese Focus and Bron Para), however I have yet seen complex 5-6 lights set-up (both still life and portrait/fashion) that use HMI. Obviously the cost is quite prohibitive, but does it even make sense to use HMI for such application?

Love to hear your thoughts.

You could possibly write a book on this topic ;-) One thing I´d like to mention is that HMI bulbs have a very small light emitting source that allows you to have a very nice sharp defined shadow. With strobe units you have a tube, at least a view inches long that is shaped linear, circular or even more wound leading in a more or less blurred shadow. It is always possible to scatter a light and make it softer. While you might find it easy to use your well know reflectors from your strobe kit I wouldn´t rule out dedicated HMIs, especially PAR lights which I really love because of their flexibility. Broncolor also offers a broad range of continuous lighting, at lot of it is water protected which can be a huge plus. This older style HMIs are from around the 80ties and were designed for scan backs. It may work fine for your needs but it won´t necessarily be suited for higher frame rates in video and usually has fan noise that may get you in trouble when recording audio. Working with HMI can be a nice experience when doing portraiture, you can easily achieve a very smooth workflow. Of course like C+B already mentioned there are limitations, especially with traditional MF (low ISO/small aperture). HMI bulbs also have a great variation of color not only between different brands but also between the same type, they can only be slightly dimmed (1Stop) and already change CRI / color within this small range. Plenty of characteristics to consider but definitely a great tool in the lighting box.

[UlfKrentz]

I had a pair of Joker 800s from K5600.  You can get an adapter for them that allows them to take Profoto accessories (as long as whatever modifier can handle the heat).  In the end, though, for architecture... I just found my strobe to be much more powerful, versatile and easier to work with.

I do love constant lighting for some portrait work I've done.  In fact, I've been shooting that all on the RED, so we don't have to "click" photos, we just put a person out there at 24 frames per second and pull the individual still after we've hit a good pose/gesture.  Has worked great and much less stressful for the subject.

-CB

Same here, indeed very relaxing kind of work, and surprisingly even with 25fps you choose a single frame and not the one next to it :-)
I love to mix all kind of lighting methods even strobe in motion, like can be seen here:



resulting in



Cheers

Ulf

[yashima]

@C+B: You are right, the major problem with HMI is lack of power, especially for bigger shoot. But for still life (longer exposure) and portraiture session (shoot wide open), 400-800W is just about okay.

@CB: K5600 seems to be really innovative. I think they really get the cross-over of still and motion photography. However they have little presence in UK/Europe so its difficult for me. Are they completely silent? They look quite a great deal more compact than Arri too.

@Ulf: It's great to hear from you. Do you use mostly Broncolor HMI? Is the DW800 and FT1600 completely silent as well? What is your typical HMI lighting set up? I have the chance to buy some Broncolor old HMI 1200 units, but as you say, they can be quite noisy, however for commercial and music video, I think they might still do a job.

[UlfKrentz]

@C+B: You are right, the major problem with HMI is lack of power, especially for bigger shoot. But for still life (longer exposure) and portraiture session (shoot wide open), 400-800W is just about okay.

@CB: K5600 seems to be really innovative. I think they really get the cross-over of still and motion photography. However they have little presence in UK/Europe so its difficult for me. Are they completely silent? They look quite a great deal more compact than Arri too.

@Ulf: It's great to hear from you. Do you use mostly Broncolor HMI? Is the DW800 and FT1600 completely silent as well? What is your typical HMI lighting set up? I have the chance to buy some Broncolor old HMI 1200 units, but as you say, they can be quite noisy, however for commercial and music video, I think they might still do a job.

Yes, we mostly use broncolor HMIs, recently added some Arris to also have more powerful units. The FT system is quite new and we do not have personal experience yet but they look promising. DW800 and the smaller units are all without fans and quiet. The older 1200W HMIs are a bit "special" as the heads can only be used with a dedicated 1200PAR reflector, it is indeed very noisy, not only from the fans but also from the ignitor/bulb. This series is not electrical compatible with the newer style broncolor equipment and is no longer serviced. They can also not be simply rewired as the heads need an additional 24volts power. But the ballasts will run the old 575heads as well. If you´re not recording sound and can get them cheap, why not. You might also consider renting HMIs first and get to work with different brands.

K5600 is actually a french brand, so Europe / UK should be no problem at all. Those guys are very friendly and helpful but their business is based on film/TV not on photography.

Regarding our lighting, there is no typical set-up. I actually hate repeating the same setups and always try to do things at least slightly different, always carefully watching the results to further develop my skills.

Cheers

Ulf

[Rob C]

Hey, Cooter!

Just remarked somewhere else today that I thought you'd given up on us, such a long time no see...

Glad I was wrong.

Rob C

[geesbert]

My Eyes feel very tired after a day of work with HMIs, I really think they get to your brain. Another problem is thast f-stop bracketing which I need rather often, becomes difficult due to slow shutter speeds needed with smaller f-stops.
And heat is a problem.

[design_freak]

You must try Briese Lichttechnik 
http://www.brieselichttechnik.de/

[UlfKrentz]

My brain always hurts, except for about 45 seconds a day.

I thought that was the job description.

James,

Really love your sense of humor, and thanks for your kind words.
Those new broncolors use the G22 Base for 1600W, I have seen a pre production unit and haven´t made up my mind yet. They just get started right now. If you want to keep using broncolor HMIs the Kobold DW800 is probably still the best unit they make right now. And yes continuous lighting is mostly rental, and Arris are all over the place for a reason.

@design_freak: Briese makes Arri look like chinese knock offs price wise, there is a hype for them in music videos but seriously at what investment. Just look at their ballasts, they a developed and manufactured by the same company that is building the Arri ballasts, in fact just slightly modified. The heads are very noisy, you instantly make a friends in the sound department ;-)

Cheers

Ulf

[RobertJ]

I would give the Dracast LED Fresnels a try (or the Arris).  I feel that the best LED lights have better color quality than HMIs (technically higher CRI) or are about a year or two away from being better, which is hard to believe, but damn, the Dracast and Arris are getting really, really good.  And you can plug them into the wall, and they are cool to the touch.

The Dracast fresnels can use Chimera boxes as well.

[eronald]

Re. the headphone stuff almost everyone doing audio in a pro way over here seems to have one of these. Good isolation, but no supression, unboosted bass, earcups pivot so you can use just one.

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-HD25-1-II-Closed-Back-Headphones/dp/B000TDZOXG

The model is something like 30 years old and so popular over here that you can buy colored or textured felt for them at instrument shops. Every part and wire can be swapped, they never seem to die. When I bought mine 10 years ago I didn't know that there is something called a headphone for life, but this is sure starting to look like it. 

Edmund

Ulf,

I love the power of the 1600 brons.  Problem is the money.  I can afford it . . . but should I spend $33,000 for three lights?

Hell I have at least 20 Flash units from monoblocks to packs/heads and the way our biz has changed they usually stay on the shelf.

In fact I love bron for some crazy emotional reason, but they are a very strange company.  I tried to buy three a year ago before the year ended for tax purposes and broncolor was closed three weeks for the holiday, so I couldn't get any real info.

Your right the Kobald 800's are a better deal, 24k for three with a case.

Then again, it's almost hilarious that working in studio you can buy the same power with tungsten arri's at 1/4 the price and price does matter today in our industry.

Also tungsten doesn't flicker, or hum or need a fan or ballast.

Two very different tungsten fresnel looks.

1k arri fresnel, p30+/contax


2 250 arri fresanel, leica s2, contax zeiss lens


We were shooting with the brons on set and I heard a hum.  I told my sound tech I hear I hum and he never heard it as one of the ballasts was packing up.*

Half way into production the sound tech noticed it so we had to keep it running no matter if it was being used.   Luckily it was easy to remove in post as the hum was above the dialog.

People talk LED's and i have two large sets of them, one small on location set and they're ok but it takes post work and they don't throw a lot of watts, at least real world watts, though they are brutal on the talent's eyes.

The only upside to LED's for me is they run off of batteries, I use v-locks and for speed they're glorious for key and light crafting they take work.

As you know, continuous light is a monster, if your coming from strobe.   We all learned to craft light with flash not really seeing the subject, but by experience and placement.

Now with continuous light we still have to use the same skills, because regardless of popular opinion, with continuous what you see isn't always what you get.   But running off of location mains takes a lot of amps, or an offsite generator which really adds to the production costs.

I guess what I'm saying is, there is no free lunch.

As far as briese they make great props but I don't see anything they do compared to the other brands.   I guess they have a patent on yellow and black.

IMO

BC


*BTW don't use expensive headphones for sound monitoring.  I have four sets that costs way too much and went with two sets of white panasonic cheapo headphones.

Great headphones have surpression and that's why my sound guy didn't hear the hum, though my panasonic headphones did.

[UlfKrentz]

snip
 I guess they have a patent on yellow and black.
snip

Haha, I´m sure they have.

What I really love about the broncolor and kobolds is that they are water protected. We have been able to use them in the pouring rain on several sets. Unfortunately they skipped this feature with the new 1600 system. For more punch we added Arri M18 which are very reliable units. They are build for a film crew, anybody who ever worked on a film set knows what that means. Those guys don´t care for anything.

Now tungsten are beautiful lights (CRI of 100). But if you compare them on the same CT they are A LOT less powerful and produce enormous heat. If you don´t filter either the light or the camera you risk to starve the blue channel but yes they are a great tool in the box and it can be very nice to put them into the mix and play with different CTs.

We use a noise cancelling headphone that works great on set, you better hear what is actually recorded, it won´t help against a sloppy sound guy though.

Cheers

Ulf

[UlfKrentz]

Well said I see your point, and with all those technical stuff we still have to keep a free mind to create pleasing images, WTF. Cheers!

[yashima]

Thanks for the great advice guys.

As for me moving from editorial/fashion photography with strobe lighting, HMI from Broncolor/Profoto has a few unique attraction over traditional movie HMI:

- relatively small and light, so I can work with it using a small screw as before (2 assistants). Arri HMI and tungsten is great, however the business will have to be operated differently. I guess I take a few step up it would be serious consideration.

- the light can be very localised and shaped in many different ways (as in strobe lighting), this can give more interesting lighting than Arri HMI (which is a big source, and you can only basically flag, diffuse, spot). When you want to though, you can mount it onto a Flooter and you have Arri HMI

The drawbacks are obvious. They are expensive (and I prefer to own my stuff), noisier and low power.


@Bcooter and Ulf: Is the new/current 575/800 Bron HMI (the one looks the same as Pulso G) silent like the FW800? I'm looking for a couple, so if you ever think of letting one go please give me the first shout.

[UlfKrentz]

@Bcooter and Ulf: Is the new/current 575/800 Bron HMI (the one looks the same as Pulso G) silent like the FW800? I'm looking for a couple, so if you ever think of letting one go please give me the first shout.

Yashima, broncolors new ballasts run 400, 575 and 800Watt heads and are silent. Their recent Pulso style 575/800 head (can be lamped and switched either to 575 or 800Watts) still has a fan. It is not as noisy as their predecessor but still a problem when recording sound. In addition it is not only quieter but also less effective resulting in possible overheating and switch off when tilted downwards. To make things even worse the fan instantly stops working when the light is switched off and the remaining heat is usually enough to also trigger the overheat protection and prevent a restrike. As Cooter already mentioned the security switch controlling the presence of the glass dome can also easily cause a disruption when the head is moved. These type lamp head is not water protected, other than their Kobold counterparts. To sum this up, this is delicate equipment and will enable great results but you better now about all these characteristics to be able to run them smooth. HMI is expensive, no matter what way or brand you go. First thing to buy to get started with continuous lighting would be a pair of good heat protecting gloves ;-)

Cheers

Ulf

[JoeKitchen]

Chris.

 I appreciate your integrity, but please move this back to medium format, because its' the only place the pros go and the only place for real learning under pressure.

I presented 5 medium format images and this lighting section has few knowing respondents.

Lighting has a lot to due with medium format so lets loosen up and go back where it started.

We all here to lean but let's learn from the real workers . . . the people that try everything which lands on the medium format page which use to be to be the pro section.

I know your trying to follow Kevin's rules but those rule don't work.   Michael would have let this pass, Kevin is a PR guy that only understands equipment placement.

PR . . .  real world.  I go real world with people like Ulf or well if we're here NOT to make camera companies happy... no reason to share.


tough out man.



J.


IMO

BC

+1

I kind of feel that the medium format section is best for this kind of stuff too.  I realize that there are many members that do not shoot medium format that may know a good deal about lighting.  However, with CMOS sensors the way they are, even seasoned pros shooting 35mm have "given up" on lighting there images. 

MF shooters have a different mind set.

[rogan]

I travel a lot and carry two K5600 Joker 800s. Works anywhere in the world and very robust, just pull the tubes and put in foam before traveling.
James, what you said about Bron being fragile, I feel thats true of their entire line. Feels like it was designed for German still life photographers who have perfectly clean studios with pencils in a row from largest to smallest. In my real world, I find most Bron gear get's attached to c stands and used as sand bags as they quit working after one pass thru checked luggage. They also are really picky about generators and refuse to turn on. Profoto seems to travel so much better and for the most part I don't need the 23 different strobe functions on location. On/Off power up and down. That said the B1s have replaced pretty much everything save 1 a7 pack for location work.
And I have a real hard time spending good money on anything that is teal.

[UlfKrentz]

I travel a lot and carry two K5600 Joker 800s. Works anywhere in the world and very robust, just pull the tubes and put in foam before traveling.
James, what you said about Bron being fragile, I feel thats true of their entire line. Feels like it was designed for German still life photographers who have perfectly clean studios with pencils in a row from largest to smallest. In my real world, I find most Bron gear get's attached to c stands and used as sand bags as they quit working after one pass thru checked luggage. They also are really picky about generators and refuse to turn on. Profoto seems to travel so much better and for the most part I don't need the 23 different strobe functions on location. On/Off power up and down. That said the B1s have replaced pretty much everything save 1 a7 pack for location work.
And I have a real hard time spending good money on anything that is teal.

Can´t second that. We use bron stuff on Location, no issues at all. The HMI heads in Pulso style and the twin heads may be shock sensitive, but as you apply with the jokers, just pull the bulbs and you´re OK to travel. Had a few issues with their ballast though. In more than 20 years we had some major issues with strobe equipment, several defective capacitors with Hensel packs, one completely bursting flash tube in a profoto Pro Head, that shortened the output and therefore also resulted in a defective pack afterwards and a blown up Pro7 pack which was a well cared rental unit. While Profoto might travel better, it´s just another experience or I was lucky.

For the record, we use a lot of those "fancy" adjustments, I feel limited when renting other brands. YMMV.

Single exposure, fancy broncolor settings:

http://www.krentzphotography.com/#!hype/cd7c