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Author Topic: Gravitational Waves  (Read 22426 times)

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2016, 09:17:03 am »

Rob, I am more optimistic than you:) Our view of history is naturally biased to our cultural background and the times where we happen to be living. So naturally we think that the "today" is really bad, and it will only get worse.

But actually, 2000 years ago, the civilized world went through what some historians think it was one of the greatest changes/upheavals ever; the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire.

100 years ago we went through one of the most dreadful wars ever, I think that today we are in better shape. Yes, there are problems, and serious ones, but we will survive Trump and/or Boris, if that is the case:)

Best regards

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2016, 10:21:15 am »

I noticed recently he called you a bawling infant? It looks like stalking?



Indeed, but how do you complain about/sue softwear? ((I have twice (at least) attempted to contact Microsoft on this, that 'n' the other (this 'n' that in one complaint - the maths figures) and all to no avail; it's configured to permit only access types that it desires, and to which it thinks it can make a sale.))

So, in the case of the phenomenon in question, you need some background, which my careful research has unearthed for me in one of those revelatory dreams. (I get many answers and solutions that way; recently, possibly an age-linked thing, I get more answers than solutions.) Regarding my first word in this paragraph, 'so', have you noticed the current dynamic shift to the use of 'so' as the beginning of almost every statement made on television, even when its meaning doesn't fit at all? I think 'so' has become the new 'like'.

Now, Mr Kubrick and that awfully clever chap Arthur C. Clarke created Hal. As you know, Hal was relatively talkative, but that turned out not to be one of his better characteristics. So, as Mk 2, the duo created another machine, but this one somewhat more taciturn, and assigned to it the capacity and duty of serving as a quotations centre. Somehow, it became enmeshed with the LuLa server.

And there's the rub: how to deal with softwear? I don't do algorithms.

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 10:27:11 am by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2016, 10:25:05 am »

Rob, I am more optimistic than you:) Our view of history is naturally biased to our cultural background and the times where we happen to be living. So naturally we think that the "today" is really bad, and it will only get worse.

But actually, 2000 years ago, the civilized world went through what some historians think it was one of the greatest changes/upheavals ever; the fall of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire.

100 years ago we went through one of the most dreadful wars ever, I think that today we are in better shape. Yes, there are problems, and serious ones, but we will survive Trump and/or Boris, if that is the case:)

Best regards


Man, I would love, for the sake of my progeny, to share your optimism. But I can't. I honestly believe the point of no return was reached quite some time ago.

Rob C

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2016, 11:06:31 am »

The folks often disagree however.

I've worked in medical (cancer) genetics and gravitation, although never in the big science projects associated with the former. "Folks" probably think the former is more important. From the inside, I see a huge amount of money wasted on unfeasible projects because of equally huge egos, who can't stomach to be told that laws of mathematics and logic mean they can't do waht they are spending money to try to do. The net gain from the billions spent on various genome sequencing projects has been important, but actually very modest in extent. Mostly, we've learnt that what people had insisted was true was not (tumours are not homogeneous clones, they don't march inexorably on but can be stopped by the immune system, and that our healthy tissue is itself a mosaic of diffent genotypes, many of which were supposed to be very unhealthy). And please don't say "epigenetics" at this point, it's just another round of massive hype and self-delusion... with some interesting facts buried underneath.

Worth remembering that this internet thingy was a by-product of CERN, and that the whole thing is much cheaper than a football world-cup (even without using border-line slave labour and a huge worker mortality rate). certainly cheaper than a moderate size proxy way in the middle-east.

But finally, science is like art. Some of it is maybe more expensive than is reasonable... but it's worth doing, imho.


Trust me, Graham I shall never mention epigenetics! I have no idea where they live nor even who they are.

Gravitation has always interested me. As with suction, I realise that it simply doesn't exist: suction is nothing but the other side of pressure, and gravity but the second part of cause and effect: if you jump six feet up in the air, as a measure of vertical distance travelled, you can only complete the action by virtue of its opposite - the return journey downwards, also of six feet. Nothing to do with 'gravity' at all, simply a product of equal and opposite directions. Do you see?

As to the cost of a world-cup - I can't pretend to know a lot about it; all I can offer is that it seems a pretty corrupt thing with which to mess; even now, at this late (or perhaps only early?) stage of multiple exposures, transparency is being denied in fresh elections: how brass-necked is that?

Regarding the art/science equilibrium: that some art is more expensive than another piece is without question; however, that all of it is worth the doing is, nonetheless, questionable. I need do no more than look within my own soul: some of its outpourings I like, but many I strangle at birth. Nope, I don't believe all 'art' is valid, not even that all 'art' is actually art. Why would science be any different? I imagine it holds just as much corruption, self-serving effort and power structure-building as anything else. At least Mars did the right thing.

The dificulties of attaining definitive thought...

Rob

Telecaster

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2016, 03:45:39 pm »

Gravitation has always interested me. As with suction, I realise that it simply doesn't exist: suction is nothing but the other side of pressure, and gravity but the second part of cause and effect: if you jump six feet up in the air, as a measure of vertical distance travelled, you can only complete the action by virtue of its opposite - the return journey downwards, also of six feet. Nothing to do with 'gravity' at all, simply a product of equal and opposite directions. Do you see?

Actually this isn't a bad description. In general relativity gravity is just a consequence of moving in curved spacetime. You follow the spacetime curve caused by the Earth's mass as you jump up…and since that curve is too steep relative to the jump velocity you'd need to go sailing off into orbit or even beyond, you then slide back down again.

Yet in quantum mechanics—presuming gravity exists in the realm of the very small (most physicists presume it does but it's still an open question, and one gravitational wave "telescopes" could help us answer)—gravity does become a force (again, as in Newton's theory) and curved spacetime gives way to the exchange of force-carrying particles (gravitons) among & between objects with mass. Emitting & absorbing gravitons causes such objects to be drawn towards each other. We already know that wave behavior can be associated with discrete objects—photons, for example—so there's no reason to think gravity is any different…and good reasons to presume it's the same.

-Dave-
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Isaac

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2016, 06:57:17 pm »

I noticed recently he called you a bawling infant?

Supposedly "… people are born what they are."
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stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #66 on: February 25, 2016, 03:44:08 am »

Supposedly "… people are born what they are."

Isaac....you must be a joy to live with?

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #67 on: February 25, 2016, 04:29:24 am »

Isaac....you must be a joy to live with?

"Supposedly "… people are born what they are."

If I may recap: Now, Mr Kubrick and that awfully clever chap Arthur C. Clarke created Hal. As you know, Hal was relatively talkative, but that turned out not to be one of his better characteristics. So, as Mk 2, the duo created another machine, but this one somewhat more taciturn, and assigned to it the capacity and duty of serving as a quotations centre. Somehow, it became enmeshed with the LuLa server.

You see? I was right, stamper. Son of Hal, aka Mk 2, aka QC (Quotation Centre)!

Amazing use of time/effort. And worthy of respect for assiduous attention to detail and cataloguing skills: I can hardly remember day to day what went down - possibly because not a lot does - but stuff from the 50s/60s remains brightly shining in the relevant firmament.

Rob C
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 04:37:06 am by Rob C »
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Zorki5

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2016, 09:56:11 am »

You see? I was right, stamper.

For those familiar with computer science history, you guys sound like
Robin Hood and Friar Tuck virus.

Take a moment, read the above -- remarkable similarity!

That virus hijacked other people's computers, you hijack other people's threads...
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2016, 10:22:02 am »

For those familiar with computer science history, you guys sound like
Robin Hood and Friar Tuck virus.

Take a moment, read the above -- remarkable similarity!

That virus hijacked other people's computers, you hijack other people's threads...


Do you really think anyone's going to be rash enough to read something clearly labelled as 'virus'?

I might have one germinating in my cellphone: every now and again, when I startle it out of its habitual slumber, a little line comes up at the very top that prohibits the closing-down of the cellphone.

The line reads something about a "little kernel" or like that; it continues along to mantion 1st April of some years ago, so I tend to think its a prank by some nut case - kernel? - but fortunately, in the end, it just goes away and the cell can be operated normally.

Strange sense of humour, perhaps it comes from Korea as original equipment.

Hijack. Were the thread going anywhere, I'm sure it would still be doing exactly that if there were enough people of science around to give it momentum. As it is, I think we pedestrians seem to be all that's left... Didn't somebody suggest it move to a more fitting venue? However, as it's the Coffee Corner, I wouldn't propose that myself.

;-)

Rob C

stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2016, 10:38:11 am »

For those familiar with computer science history, you guys sound like
Robin Hood and Friar Tuck virus.

Take a moment, read the above -- remarkable similarity!

That virus hijacked other people's computers, you hijack other people's threads...


And you are guilty of hijacking?

Zorki5

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2016, 11:59:18 am »

Do you really think anyone's going to be rash enough to read something clearly labelled as 'virus'?

OK, I'll take your remark at face value... And I'll copy/paste this time (BTW, I was referring to those messages after the attempt to kill one instance with "!X id1"):

Quote
   
Robin Hood And Friar Tuck

The following story was posted in news.sysadmin recently.

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

Back in the mid-1970s, several of the system support staff
at Motorola (I believe it was) discovered a relatively
simple way to crack system security on the Xerox CP-V
timesharing system (or it may have been CP-V's predecessor
UTS).  Through a simple programming strategy, it was
possible for a user program to trick the system into running
a portion of the program in "master mode" (supervisor
state), in which memory protection does not apply.  The
program could then poke a large value into its "privilege
level" byte (normally write-protected) and could then
proceed to bypass all levels of security within the
file-management system, patch the system monitor, and do
numerous other interesting things.  In short, the barn door
was wide open.

Motorola quite properly reported this problem to XEROX via
an official "level 1 SIDR" (a bug report with a perceived
urgency of "needs to be fixed yesterday").  Because the text
of each SIDR was entered into a database that could be
viewed by quite a number of people, Motorola followed the
approved procedure: they simply reported the problem as
"Security SIDR", and attached all of the necessary
documentation, ways-to-reproduce, etc. separately.

Xerox apparently sat on the problem... they either didn't
acknowledge the severity of the problem, or didn't assign
the necessary operating-system-staff resources to develop
and distribute an official patch.

Time passed (months, as I recall).  The Motorola guys
pestered their Xerox field-support rep, to no avail.
Finally they decided to take Direct Action, to demonstrate
to Xerox management just how easily the system could be
cracked, and just how thoroughly the system security systems
could be subverted.

They dug around through the operating-system listings, and
devised a thoroughly devilish set of patches.  These patches
were then incorporated into a pair of programs called Robin
Hood and Friar Tuck.  Robin Hood and Friar Tuck were
designed to run as "ghost jobs" (daemons, in Unix
terminology); they would use the existing loophole to
subvert system security, install the necessary patches, and
then keep an eye on one another's statuses in order to keep
the system operator (in effect, the superuser) from aborting
them.

So... one day, the system operator on the main CP-V
software-development system in El Segundo was surprised by a
number of unusual phenomena.  These included the following
(as I recall... it's been a while since I heard the story):

- Tape drives would rewind and dismount their tapes in the
  middle of a job.

- Disk drives would seek back&forth so rapidly that they'd
  attempt to walk across the floor.

- The card-punch output device would occasionally start up
  of itself and punch a "lace card" (every hole punched).
  These would usually jam in the punch.

- The console would print snide and insulting messages from
  Robin Hood to Friar Tuck, or vice versa.

- The Xerox card reader had two output stackers; it could be
  instructed to stack into A, stack into B, or stack into A
  unless a card was unreadable, in which case the bad card
  was placed into stacker B.  One of the patches installed
  by the ghosts added some code to the card-reader driver...
  after reading a card, it would flip over to the opposite
  stacker.  As a result, card decks would divide themselves
  in half when they were read, leaving the operator to
  recollate them manually.

I believe that there were some other effects produced, as
well.

Naturally, the operator called in the operating-system
developers.  They found the bandit ghost jobs running, and
X'ed them... and were once again surprised.  When Robin Hood
was X'ed, the following sequence of events took place:

  !X id1

  id1:   Friar Tuck... I am under attack!  Pray save me!  (Robin Hood)
  id1: Off (aborted)

  id2: Fear not, friend Robin!  I shall rout the Sheriff of Nottingham's men!

  id3: Thank you, my good fellow! (Robin)

Each ghost-job would detect the fact that the other had been
killed, and would start a new copy of the recently-slain
program within a few milliseconds.  The only way to kill
both ghosts was to kill them simultaneously (very difficult)
or to deliberately crash the system.

Finally, the system programmers did the latter... only to
find that the bandits appeared once again when the system
rebooted!  It turned out that these two programs had patched
the boot-time image (the /vmunix file, in Unix terms) and
had added themselves to the list of programs that were to be
started at boot time...

The Robin Hood and Friar Tuck ghosts were finally eradicated
when the system staff rebooted the system from a clean
boot-tape and reinstalled the monitor.  Not long thereafter,
Xerox released a patch for this problem.

I believe that Xerox filed a complaint with Motorola's
management about the merry-prankster actions of the two
employees in question.  To the best of my knowledge, no
serious disciplinary action was taken against either of
these guys.

Several years later, both of the perpetrators were hired by
Honeywell, which had purchased the rights to CP-V after
Xerox pulled out of the mainframe business.  Both of them
made serious and substantial contributions to the Honeywell
CP-6 operating system development effort.  Robin Hood (Dan
Holle) did much of the development of the PL-6
system-programming language compiler; Friar Tuck (John
Gabler) was one of the chief communications-software gurus
for several years.  They're both alive and well, and living
in LA (Dan) and Orange County (John).  Both are among the
more brilliant people I've had the pleasure of working with.

Disclaimers: it has been quite a while since I heard the
details of how this all went down, so some of the details
above are almost certainly wrong.  I shared an apartment
with John Gabler for several years, and he was my Best Man
when I married back in '86... so I'm somewhat predisposed to
believe his version of the events that occurred.

Dave Platt
  Coherent Thought Inc.  3350 West Bayshore #205  Palo Alto CA 94303
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Isaac

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2016, 02:18:06 pm »

Whatever it is, go start your own thread about it.

No one would give any attention to those posts if they were in their own discussion thread.


… you hijack other people's threads…

Discussions are hijacked, disrupted and smothered - so a bored few can amuse themselves.


Reluctantly, I'll now spend a few moments to Login before reading the LuLa forum, because that seems to be the price that has to be paid, to enable the forum software to Ignore List them.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 02:47:37 pm by Isaac »
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2016, 05:49:07 pm »

OK, I'll take your remark at face value... And I'll copy/paste this time (BTW, I was referring to those messages after the attempt to kill one instance with "!X id1"):



That's an interesting story; in fact, it quite tickles my fancy.

But two problems:

1. it's off topic;

2. it doesn't address my little 'problem' with the Samsung cellphone's fondness for the 'kernel' thing.

But nonetheless, I did enjoy reading about those inventive souls; think of the magic they could weave if they joined up with us here in LuLa!

;-)

Rob C

stamper

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2016, 05:23:49 am »

For those familiar with computer science history, you guys sound like
Robin Hood and Friar Tuck virus.

Take a moment, read the above -- remarkable similarity!

That virus hijacked other people's computers, you hijack other people's threads...


Take a moment? I think it would have taken more than a moment? I didn't read it because it was off topic.....something that you were complaining about. Rather ironic. :(

Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2016, 09:48:19 am »

No one would give any attention to those posts if they were in their own discussion thread.


Discussions are hijacked, disrupted and smothered - so a bored few can amuse themselves.


Reluctantly, I'll now spend a few moments to Login before reading the LuLa forum, because that seems to be the price that has to be paid, to enable the forum software to Ignore List them.

The many sighs of relief were quite audible; shame you couldn't hear them.

;-)

Rob C

Zorki5

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2016, 11:47:40 am »

I didn't read it because it was off topic.....something that you were complaining about. Rather ironic. :(

Well, once the conversation is derailed, there's no coming back.

I am here to have some fun (just like you, from what I see), and I found it very amusing hearing photographers (!) complaining about scientists not doing something more useful. Talk about irony...

But there's still a difference between doing some OT remarks and completely derailing the thread. This is how it felt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgOqcH1Ywzs

(Rob, there's no virus in that video, so click away, you're safe)

If you see no problem with that kind of visitors -- OK, so be it. Good to know.
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2016, 02:21:46 pm »

Well, once the conversation is derailed, there's no coming back.

I am here to have some fun (just like you, from what I see), and I found it very amusing hearing photographers (!) complaining about scientists not doing something more useful. Talk about irony...

But there's still a difference between doing some OT remarks and completely derailing the thread. This is how it felt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgOqcH1Ywzs

(Rob, there's no virus in that video, so click away, you're safe)

If you see no problem with that kind of visitors -- OK, so be it. Good to know.


No, no, no!

It was about scientists not doing something scientifically more useful; and that's very different.

Also, it was about the resources that may be available to them being better directed. And an indication of 'better' was lodged with the hope they be 'encouraged' to concentrate on the medical and less esoteric where esoteric means practically useless.

I think it's time to think about the human race as we know it, not about discovering worlds that we shall never visit if real, and pointless where we can't even see them. As long as we leave them alone, I'm sure they will reciprocate in kind.

We need better meds., better transport choices and far, far better human relations and freedom from isms and "correctnesses" of many kinds.

;-)

Rob

Isaac

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2016, 03:08:36 pm »

Isaac....you must be a joy to live with?

Ye huvnae bin asked tae bide-in hen.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2016, 01:10:24 pm by Isaac »
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Rob C

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Re: Gravitational Waves
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2016, 04:10:18 am »

Yez nae been asked ta bidey-in hen.

I know the lesson won't be learned - I understand being invisible; however, this line is risible.

Never, in all my years there, did I hear anyone utter such a line. Arise, the newly invented faux Scot.

Rob C
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