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Author Topic: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?  (Read 11553 times)

mbaginy

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2016, 04:56:03 pm »

That is not a tripod. It is a selfie stick with legs. And to make it worse you have it on a timber floor.
I have to agree about that extended center column being a truly bad idea.  Turns a stable tried into kind of a monopod - especially difficult outdoors with even the slightest breeze.  I removed my (Gitzo) center column and mounted a stable plate into which my 3-way (Manfrotto) gear head is securely fastened.
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Doug Gray

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2016, 07:21:09 pm »

Could you show 100% crops Doug? would be interesting to see.

Regards

Note that these pictures are from a target w/o sharp edges. The spacial frequencies are below Nyquist which eliminates artifacts and variations from the pixel sampling positions when processing the data through the FFT transforms:

All at 1/500th.

208a5338x.tiff: Live view mode 1;
208a5332x.tiff: Standard, No IS
208a5335x.tiff: Standard, w IS

If you compare the images you can see a slight blurring in the vertical on the Standard, no IS, a bit less on the standard w IS compared to the Live view which has no motion blur.

The image is from the circular superposition of 7 sine waves which are spaced at 10, 20, 30, ... 70 lines per mm. From this MTF can be measured and the additional effects of motion blur can be seen.


Corrected. Mirror lockup misstated
« Last Edit: February 08, 2016, 07:31:51 pm by Doug Gray »
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jemadsen

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2016, 01:47:39 pm »

Isn't it a rather simple conclusion that if your camere is unstable, being handheld or on a flimsy tripod or in a gail storm, then image stabilization will likely help, whereas if your camera is well supported and completely stable it will not.

Accentuated by no (at least little) help at shorter focallenghts and shutterspeeds, and help at longer focallengths and shutterspeeds.

Regards
Johannes Elkjaer Madsen
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Doug Gray

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2016, 09:32:46 pm »

Isn't it a rather simple conclusion that if your camere is unstable, being handheld or on a flimsy tripod or in a gail storm, then image stabilization will likely help, whereas if your camera is well supported and completely stable it will not.

Accentuated by no (at least little) help at shorter focallenghts and shutterspeeds, and help at longer focallengths and shutterspeeds.

Regards
Johannes Elkjaer Madsen

Sure, but it's a matter of degree. Flimsy tripods are generally better than handheld. Even good tripods can have significant vibrations exceeding many pixels until dying down and wind, of course, is another variable.

I have an extremely stable surveyors tripod. They are designed to be pretty tolerant of wind and are quite stiff and stable. They still can suffer from some wind induced motion. Surveyors often need to measure angles to better than 1 or 2 seconds of arc so they make good photo tripods. They are also cheaper. Downside: they are quite heavy. They are ideal for long exposure timed shots where there is too much wind for a regular tripod.
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hjulenissen

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2016, 03:25:57 am »

Isn't it a rather simple conclusion that if your camere is unstable, being handheld or on a flimsy tripod or in a gail storm, then image stabilization will likely help, whereas if your camera is well supported and completely stable it will not.
IS tries (and usually succeeds) in improving camera shake.

But does it ever make images worse, as suggested by some to be the case when your camera is (more or less) well supported?

-h
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dwswager

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2016, 09:00:56 am »

IS tries (and usually succeeds) in improving camera shake.

But does it ever make images worse, as suggested by some to be the case when your camera is (more or less) well supported?

-h

Image Stabilization OFF when mounted on a tripod is the BOOK answer.  It is a generalization that is based on having a stable platform and was issued for the 1st generation of Image Stabilization. 

The question how truly stable is the platform with respect to both external and internal forces. There are lots of things that will affect you in a given situation.  The type and quality of the stabilization implementation, for example.  A 4th generation stabilization solution is likely to be more effective in these types of situation while it is likely a 1st generation would be detrimental.  Processing power obviously will contribute positively. 

I don't think there is a single answer to your question as there are too many variables.  Testing is useful. 
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hjulenissen

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2016, 09:07:57 am »

Image Stabilization OFF when mounted on a tripod is the BOOK answer.  It is a generalization that is based on having a stable platform and was issued for the 1st generation of Image Stabilization. 

The question how truly stable is the platform with respect to both external and internal forces. There are lots of things that will affect you in a given situation.  The type and quality of the stabilization implementation, for example.  A 4th generation stabilization solution is likely to be more effective in these types of situation while it is likely a 1st generation would be detrimental.  Processing power obviously will contribute positively. 

I don't think there is a single answer to your question as there are too many variables.  Testing is useful.
I should have been more explicit in my post.

1. I think that everyone agrees that whenever there is motion, IS tends to generally make things better (often a lot).

2. I believe that what is contested is the "BOOK answer" that IS might reduce image quality if there is no shake.

I think that the latter is the question that it makes sense to try to answer, and indeed what I expected when I opened this thread. Resting the camera on a concrete slab with and without IS might (?) provide a decent answer to that question.

-h
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dwswager

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2016, 11:26:04 am »

I should have been more explicit in my post.

1. I think that everyone agrees that whenever there is motion, IS tends to generally make things better (often a lot).

2. I believe that what is contested is the "BOOK answer" that IS might reduce image quality if there is no shake.

I think that the latter is the question that it makes sense to try to answer, and indeed what I expected when I opened this thread. Resting the camera on a concrete slab with and without IS might (?) provide a decent answer to that question.

-h

I agree, we make generalizations because they are useful.  We can all agree that without any motion at all, IS can not do better than No IS.  What I cannot answer is will it be detrimental?  My suspicions is older IS implementations [biased by Nikon experience] will degrade the image while newer ones might not.  I also suspect that having more processing power thrown at the solution, meaning new camera bodies, probably lessens the effect.  However, this would be dependent on the design of the processing algorithm scheme which I am not privy too.

I just think there are too many different lens in play with different IS and too many different camera bodies to come up with a useful generalization.  10 years from now, IS might be an always on feature!  I know with VR I on a Nikon body of the time, it was generally accepted that VR should be turned off with shutter speeds over 1/400th - 1/500th because it would blur the image.  That is no longer the case for newer VR implementations. I used higher shutter speeds with the 200-500mm Nikkor and VR Sport ON with the rig mounted on a monopod last night.
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razrblck

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2016, 12:44:04 pm »

As you said, there are many implementations out there and it is hard to come up with a simple generalization. Following what the manual for the particular equipment says is a good start, but as with all things it's up to you to test and push your gear to achieve what you want.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2016, 03:29:59 pm »

BTW I did not show the 100% crops from a "no-wind" situation:






There is no practical difference in this case.

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/index.htm

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kencameron

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2016, 04:32:48 pm »

I tested the a7II with a 180 and a big RRS tripod, and came to a different conclusion:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=8391

The situation is a bit more muddled with the a7II with a light tripod, and even more so with the a7R, a camera that interacts with OSS in some strange ways:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9743

Jim


It would be nice to have a standard test of IS, including on and off good and bad tripod setups. Is there any such thing? I assume DPReview and other similar sites follow a standard approach. It would also be interesting to have Jim's meticulous test applied to Guillermo's camera and lens combination (edit: or vice versa). I suspect the differences Jim detects might be hard to see on actual images. My minimal conclusion so far is that forgetting to turn IS off on my suboptimal tripod might not always or usually end in tears.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2016, 05:31:09 pm by kencameron »
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Ken Cameron

Jim Kasson

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2016, 06:58:44 pm »


It would be nice to have a standard test of IS, including on and off good and bad tripod setups. Is there any such thing? I assume DPReview and other similar sites follow a standard approach. It would also be interesting to have Jim's meticulous test applied to Guillermo's camera and lens combination (edit: or vice versa). I suspect the differences Jim detects might be hard to see on actual images. My minimal conclusion so far is that forgetting to turn IS off on my suboptimal tripod might not always or usually end in tears.

Because of the difficulty many of us have in translating MTF curves to what actual images would look like, I once made a set of images which were carefully degraded by precise amounts of motion blur, and posted them together with the MTF corresponding to that amount of motion blur.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9928

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9946

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9960

By the way, in order to evaluate the Kolari a7II mod, which changes the weight of the sensor assembly and thus potentially how well IBIS works, I came up with a controlled vibration technique based on a shaker table. It ultimately proved sufficiently non-repeatable to compare cameras, lenses, or techniques across different testing sessions.

Jim

AFairley

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2016, 08:12:29 pm »

That is not a tripod. It is a selfie stick with legs. And to make it worse you have it on a timber floor.

 ;D.  Yes, Guillermo's test has shown that IS on can be useful with a less than solid setup.  If you are using a monster tripod on granite with a sandbag on the camera, results could be different.
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Doug Gray

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2016, 11:58:29 pm »

Because of the difficulty many of us have in translating MTF curves to what actual images would look like, I once made a set of images which were carefully degraded by precise amounts of motion blur, and posted them together with the MTF corresponding to that amount of motion blur.

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9928

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9946

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=9960

By the way, in order to evaluate the Kolari a7II mod, which changes the weight of the sensor assembly and thus potentially how well IBIS works, I came up with a controlled vibration technique based on a shaker table. It ultimately proved sufficiently non-repeatable to compare cameras, lenses, or techniques across different testing sessions.

Jim

Nice work.
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dwswager

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Re: The myth of shooting on a tripod with IS: ON/OFF?
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2016, 01:16:00 pm »

;D.  Yes, Guillermo's test has shown that IS on can be useful with a less than solid setup.  If you are using a monster tripod on granite with a sandbag on the camera, results could be different.

I realize this is sarcastic, but it highlights the real issue here.  That is, Where is the crossover point?  Knowing that no rig is ever perfectly stable and there are always internal and external forces exerted on it, do I use IS or not?

Personally, I think we will eventually arrive at an IS ALWAYS ON state sometime in the future where the mechanicals, algorithms and processing power will be such that the camera will decide based on it's data collection and analysis.

Until that point, it is up to everyone to test their own equipment, make their own judgments and build their own experience bank.

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