D500: Nikon admits defeat, but takes the title!

[kers]

What i would like to know: how much noise the shutter+ mirror makes .

It was one of the key benefits of the D810- very quiet- the nikon d4 on the other hand: KLIK-KLAK!

[armand]

I do not agree; in general FF lenses are usually better at the sides and corners of the DX format; also there is far less vignetting.
the 20mm 1.4G nikkor will give you an excellent DX image @1.4 ( becoming a 30mm F1.4)
But I agree the weight and size is a factor.

That's the principle behind the Otus, oversized image circle, right? Or some of the Sigma Arts. If you don't care about the weight it is worth it. If you choose APS-C you probably care about the weight though.

[BernardLanguillier]

That's the principle behind the Otus, oversized image circle, right? Or some of the Sigma Arts. If you don't care about the weight it is worth it. If you choose APS-C you probably care about the weight though.

Unless you are interested in a DX body for any of the following reasons:
- more reach with tele lenses,
- better AF points coverafe
- more DoF with wides

Cheers,
Bernard

[dwswager]

Unless you are interested in a DX body for any of the following reasons:
- more reach with tele lenses,
- better AF points coverafe
- more DoF with wides

Cheers,
Bernard

Exactly.  We all get caught up in our own preferences and forget that there are others that might have preferences slightly different or even diametrically opposed to our own.

I plan to purchase a D500 and it has nothing to do with weight or size versus my D810.  I will buy it for more reach and fps.  The D500 and D810 will complement each other.  Maybe a D910 with a 1.5x DX mode of 20MP or more and 8-10fps in DX mode could supplant them both.  But even then, sometimes 2 bodies are just better than 1!

[armand]

Unless you are interested in a DX body for any of the following reasons:
- more reach with tele lenses,
- better AF points coverafe
- more DoF with wides

Cheers,
Bernard

See what I wrote on the first post in this topic. Nikon probably bets you are one of those (long reacher and/or action shooter).

I'm not that sold on the more DOF with wides as your options will be more limited compared to FX.

Right now Nikon has you covered with lenses unless you want also a lighter all inclusive package; looking how much APS-C sells vs the FX even if just half of those have weight as a big factor that's a significant chunk that is getting ignored. Right now mirrorless is their answer (for a larger sensor high quality lighter weight package).

I have Nikon FX, DX and Fuji; I wouldn't have gotten the Fuji if Nikon was to have what I said before (high quality wide-normal primes and zooms for DX).
Considering that I put more money in the Fuji vs the Nikon FX their hope of upselling to FX failed.

[John Koerner]

I actually wish the D500 had a pop up flash.

I don't. I am glad Nikon omitted the auto-flash, which is another reason (for me) to switch.

I am a PI for my "day job" ... and "night job"

Therefore, quite often, I take photos in less-than-favorable light conditions.

Sometimes I do not have the luxury to sit there and tinker with settings, and more often than not I need to switch to "Auto" mode to capture what I can, quickly.

The AutoFlash feature is a buzz-kill ... a position-revealer ... and (at the very least) an annoyance.

It will be VERY nice to be able to switch to a camera that not only has great high ISO capability ... but that (when placed in Auto-mode) will NOT arbitrarily pop-up a $#%^&&, freaking flash when said flash is the last %^#^&* thing I need in that circumstance

Jack

[fdisilvestro]

The AutoFlash feature is a buzz-kill ... a position-revealer ... and (at the very least) an annoyance.

It will be VERY nice to be able to switch to a camera that not only has great high ISO capability ... but that (when placed in Auto-mode) will NOT arbitrarily pop-up a $#%^&&, freaking flash when said flash is the last %^#^&* thing I need in that circumstance

I agree, but that is an issue of the entry level cameras, at least in nikon models. No advanced/pro Nikon camera (D800, D300, etc) will auto pop-up the flash.

Personally, I use the pop-up flash only as a comander for other(s) remote flashes, never as the main light. I guess they removed the pop-up flash since they are offering a radio triggered flash.

[dwswager]

I don't. I am glad Nikon omitted the auto-flash, which is another reason (for me) to switch.

I am a PI for my "day job" ... and "night job"

Therefore, quite often, I take photos in less-than-favorable light conditions.

Sometimes I do not have the luxury to sit there and tinker with settings, and more often than not I need to switch to "Auto" mode to capture what I can, quickly.

The AutoFlash feature is a buzz-kill ... a position-revealer ... and (at the very least) an annoyance.

I suspect the flash issue and the media card configuration will probably be the 2 areas of consternation.

There are clearly 2 camps on the flash.  The first camp would not want or would not be willing to give up the increased durability and weather tightness that can be achieved by not having the flash.  The other side, including me, are generalists and the flash would be a welcome addition as it is in the the D810.  We use it as a trigger for other lights, for fill and it allows the camera to be used for indoor snapshots.  Really no right or wrong here, just different preferences.  I suspect the D810 will be my more general use shooter, in part, because of the flash. Though I also use an SB-800 on a RRS Flip bracket.

BTW, Agree on pop-up flash!  I hate auto flash even on my phone!

As to the cards, CF is clearly going to get killed.  I would have preferred 2 SD cards slots or 1SD/1CF like the D810.  However, XQD is a likely future standard.  With the buffer on the D500, I suspect very few people will actually need XQD speed to get the buffer flushed, but it will be handy for those that shoot that type of image bursts.

[kers]

Hopefully the omitted flash means:
a stronger body, but more important a better prisma/viewfinder.

[Chris Livsey]

https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2016/01/DSCF4969.jpg

Imagine that with a pop up flash, away goes strength and in comes a large sealing requirement.
Have Nikon ever made a single digit Pro model with a built in flash?

[E.J. Peiker]

https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2016/01/DSCF4969.jpg

Imagine that with a pop up flash, away goes strength and in comes a large sealing requirement.
Have Nikon ever made a single digit Pro model with a built in flash?

No they have not!

[Chris Livsey]

No they have not!

Exactly!! 

( and no one moaned about the lack either)
Well I'm sure on the web someone has 

[luxborealis]

I actually wish the D500 had a pop up flash.  It is nice to have for a little fill when all else is impractical, to set off studio lights and to allow it to be used as a family snapshot camera.  I just think a lot of people might have upgraded to D500 from D7200, but won't because they just can't give up the built in flash.

You don't realize how useful a pop-up flash is until it's not there.

It's just stupid not to have it!! What's the thinking here - price point? - misguided "pro" attitudes/snobbery? It just doesn't make sense in this day and age to leave out a pop-up flash.

I have "only" a semi-pro D800E and it has a pop-up. I don't use it for nature photography or more my serious work, but if an interior or a small group of people outdoors need just a little pop, it's there. It's not perfect, but it's better than nothing. Yes, I also have a "proper" Nikon flash, but use it only in more formal settings when I know the pop-up just won't cut it.

[razrblck]

The D500 is a DX format D5 and it's not targeted to the same people who would buy a D7x00.

The lack of popup flash makes it possible to have a better viewfinder (as well as more space for the new AF module straight out of an FX body) and more rugged body. If you don't need those features, the D7200 is still a perfectly good camera.

Also, I don't know how you people work to need the pop up so desperately, but remote triggers do exist and work way better (no issues with line of sight and lighting), and both my pop ups on D200 and D7000 cast ugly shadows whenever I put a hood on a lens (so every time, even the 50mm AF-D rubber hood blocks them). Again, there are solutions and alternatives on top of the fact that the D500 is NOT a camera for everyone.

[luxborealis]

The D500 is a DX format D5 and it's not targeted to the same people who would buy a D7x00.

The lack of popup flash makes it possible to have a better viewfinder (as well as more space for the new AF module straight out of an FX body) and more rugged body. If you don't need those features, the D7200 is still a perfectly good camera.

Also, I don't know how you people work to need the pop up so desperately, but remote triggers do exist and work way better (no issues with line of sight and lighting), and both my pop ups on D200 and D7000 cast ugly shadows whenever I put a hood on a lens (so every time, even the 50mm AF-D rubber hood blocks them). Again, there are solutions and alternatives on top of the fact that the D500 is NOT a camera for everyone.

It's no skin off my nose - just a warning to those who are considering buying the D500.

You can argue it anyway you want but not having a pop-up flash is more poor design and an attempt to make the camera appear more professional. Having a pop-up is not desperation! I shoot with a D800E with pop-up that is used infrequently, but when it's used, it is helpful. As I said, I have a full sized Nikon flash, but often, it is overkill. The pop-up is, dare I say, convenient, whether you are a pro or not.

Besides, it doesn't matter who the camera is marketed to, it's new and it's sexy and there are far more non-pros who will buy it - only to realize too late how useful a pop-up flash can be.

[razrblck]

Sorry I didn't make it clear. I'm saying it wasn't about making the camera look professional, it's about clear design choices that compromise having the pop up flash with having better weather sealing and more space for the pentaprism and electronics inside. They considered their target market and went with this choice.

[dwswager]

The D500 is a DX format D5 and it's not targeted to the same people who would buy a D7x00.

Then it would have been named the DX5.  It is a semi-pro level camera on par with the D810.  And no, the D7200 does not have enough shutter box speed or buffer for a reasonable frame rate.  It tops out at 6fps in JPEG or 5fps at 14bit NEF. Though it is a great value in a camera.

The lack of popup flash makes it possible to have a better viewfinder (as well as more space for the new AF module straight out of an FX body) and more rugged body. If you don't need those features, the D7200 is still a perfectly good camera.

Also, I don't know how you people work to need the pop up so desperately, but remote triggers do exist and work way better (no issues with line of sight and lighting), and both my pop ups on D200 and D7000 cast ugly shadows whenever I put a hood on a lens (so every time, even the 50mm AF-D rubber hood blocks them). Again, there are solutions and alternatives on top of the fact that the D500 is NOT a camera for everyone.

I understand the design trade offs.  My point is that there are 2 very distinct camps would like a lot of the functionality this camera offers and is not available elsewhere in the Nikon line.  One side doesn't really want the flash anyway and are very much in favor of the other features they gain without it.  On the other side are those that will miss the flash if they buy the D500 or will miss the loss of other functionality if they go with the D7200.  No real right or wrong here, but I know a number of amateurs that will likely continue with the D7200 because they own only 1 DSLR body and use it for family snapshots.  Had the D500 had the flash, it would have been my family photo shooter, but since it does not, I will probably use the D810.

[John Koerner]

It's no skin off my nose - just a warning to those who are considering buying the D500.

You can argue it anyway you want but not having a pop-up flash is more poor design and an attempt to make the camera appear more professional. Having a pop-up is not desperation! I shoot with a D800E with pop-up that is used infrequently, but when it's used, it is helpful. As I said, I have a full sized Nikon flash, but often, it is overkill. The pop-up is, dare I say, convenient, whether you are a pro or not.

Besides, it doesn't matter who the camera is marketed to, it's new and it's sexy and there are far more non-pros who will buy it - only to realize too late how useful a pop-up flash can be.

That's your opinion.

I don't think the designers wanted the D500 to "appear" more professional, but to be more professional.

Pros use external flashes which they configure optimally. It is actually amateurs who use pop-up flashes ...

Which brings us to the another point: external flashes are not "overkill" if you adjust them to minimize the output.

Of course, we all have different shooting styles/needs, but for me, when I often need to go to Full Auto mode, and get a quick shot, the pop-up flash is nothing but an annoyance.

I would say the annoyance/useful factor of a pop-up flash is 100/1 for the way I shoot.

Even when I shoot nature photography, I rarely use flash.

I also believe the viewfinder has been enlarged, thanks to not having the pop-up flash.

I don't expect to convince you, if your own style of shooting prefers pop-up flashes; I just think it's incorrect to say that Nikon is wanting the D500 to "appear" professional ... I think, based on ALL of the wonderful, needed/desired specs that have been put on this camera, that even Ray Charles can see that Nikon's goal is to make the D500 for professionals (who don't need the bulk of the D5, but who want the same basic feature set).

Jack

[Ajoy Roy]

I think that with coming of DSLR, most of us have assumed that a flash is a necessity. I cannot recall a single SLR that came with a built in flash, and we managed perfectly.

Any way both D500 and D5 have a commander mode that will trigger external flash(s), so where is the problem? The inbuilt flash is quite a low power one good for very close distance shooting only.

[dwswager]

What i would like to know: how much noise the shutter+ mirror makes .

It was one of the key benefits of the D810- very quiet- the nikon d4 on the other hand: KLIK-KLAK!

Not sure if this is totally helpful, but an indication.  I love the rather quiet shutter of my D810!

Youtube Video/Audio of D500 10FPS Shooting