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Author Topic: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses  (Read 2809 times)

deliberate1

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Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« on: December 21, 2015, 09:08:30 pm »

Now that I have the Contax to Leica S adapter I am in the market for lenses. I have read favorable reviews of the 80mm and the 120mm Macro. As I have the 70mm Summarit S, the 80mm is not first on my list. That would be the 120mm. But I have come across very little on the wider end of the spectrum. I would appreciate any user feed back on the 55mm, 45mm and 35mm. I am particularly interested in the 35mm.
Many thanks.
David
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Theodoros

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 10:49:07 pm »

Now that I have the Contax to Leica S adapter I am in the market for lenses. I have read favorable reviews of the 80mm and the 120mm Macro. As I have the 70mm Summarit S, the 80mm is not first on my list. That would be the 120mm. But I have come across very little on the wider end of the spectrum. I would appreciate any user feed back on the 55mm, 45mm and 35mm. I am particularly interested in the 35mm.
Many thanks.
David
The 35 & 55 are among the best lenses ever made... the 45 is a bit less capable to the edges until it is closed down  to at least f8... but on a 45x30 sensor it will be just fine at f5.6....
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deliberate1

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2015, 01:11:06 pm »

Theodoros,
Obliged for your reply.
David
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D Fuller

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2016, 08:11:54 pm »

The 35 & 55 are among the best lenses ever made... the 45 is a bit less capable to the edges until it is closed down  to at least f8... but on a 45x30 sensor it will be just fine at f5.6....

I'm also very fond of the 140.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2016, 04:19:51 am »

Hi,

MTF curves for Contax Zeiss lenses are here: http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/service/download_center/contax_645.html

If you compare to Leica MTF curves to Zeiss MTF curves you need to keep two things in mind, the first one is that Leica presents 5/10/20/40 lp/mm and Zeiss 10/20/40 lp/mm, so it is the bottom three curves you would compare.

The other point is that Zeiss always shows measured data from actual samples. When Leica presented the S-system they presented calculated curves and the curves shown may still be calculated ones.

The 120 APO Macro seems to be a great lens, much better than the older design used by Hasselblad and Rollei. The APO Macro has a floating group compensating for focusing distance, so it works well over all distances.

Best regards
Erik

Now that I have the Contax to Leica S adapter I am in the market for lenses. I have read favorable reviews of the 80mm and the 120mm Macro. As I have the 70mm Summarit S, the 80mm is not first on my list. That would be the 120mm. But I have come across very little on the wider end of the spectrum. I would appreciate any user feed back on the 55mm, 45mm and 35mm. I am particularly interested in the 35mm.
Many thanks.
David
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deliberate1

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2016, 08:39:54 pm »

Hi,

MTF curves for Contax Zeiss lenses are here: http://www.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/service/download_center/contax_645.html


Erik, thank for your efforts. I confess, I do not know how to interpret these graphs. Perhaps a simple tutorial?
Obliged to you,
David
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Theodoros

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2016, 09:11:50 pm »

I'm also very fond of the 140.

The 140 & the 210 are great performers even wide open, but the 140 in particular has a longer minimum distance than it should... I suspect that the problem won't be so evident on a Leica S because of the smaller sensor area and the 3:2 aspect which should force one to add more distance between to the subject...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2016, 12:32:20 am »

Hi,

MTF measures contrast at different resolutions. Take my P45+ back. It has 6.8 micron pixels, so it can resolve 1000/(2*6.8 )=73.5 lp/mm.

If you look at pixels in an unsharpened image, they will be pretty soft. That is because lens and sensor together have low contrast at this level. If you zoom out to "fit on screen" the image will look OK for the lens transfers a lot more contrast at lower frequencies.

MTF can be measured either by analysing an image, or on an optical bench. Here is one of my MTF-plots. Any MTF-plot of an unsharpened lens looks like this.
Please note that the pixels here are at 73.5 lp/mm everything to the right of that is information that the sensor cannot handle. That is the source of moiré. The resolution limit of the sensor is often referred to as "Nyquist" meaning the "Nyquist Limit".  All MTF above "Nyquist" is causing aliasing artifacts.


This kind of MTF plot describes only a single point in the image in one direction. So it is useful in some contexts, but actually says very little about the lens.

So the normal way is to measure MTF at many points and then show curves for 10/20/40 lp on vertical axis and distance from the centre on the horisontal axis. Like this one, from a Planar 120/4 at closest focus. Normally they make one for full aperture and one stopped down:

Why two curves? Because they measure MTF in two directions, sagittal and tangential.

In general, the curves should be as high as possible. If the curves drop evenly from centre to corner like in the figure below, the problem is probably field curvature. The Hasselblad Macro Planar is designed for short distances and has a lot of field curvature at infinity:


The Zeiss 120/4 Apo Macro for the Contax 645 is a much more advanced design, while the Hasselblad version is a traditional "Double Gauss" like virtually any "Normal lens", the Contax Macro contains an extra lens group and has floating elements, that is one group moves with focusing, thus keeping field flat at different focusing distances. I have no MTF curves to show for that lens, but they are good.

What is my "rule by thumb" for a sharp lens? MTF at 20lp/mm should be above 80% across the diagonal. Curves for 40 l/mm should be above 60%. If the curves separate I take the average.

Very good lenses, like the Zeiss Otus can reach above 80% of MTF at 40 lp/mm.

A very good (but long) tutorial on reading MTF is here:

http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/cln_archiv/cln30_en_web_special_mtf_01.pdf
http://www.zeiss.com/content/dam/Photography/new/pdf/en/cln_archiv/cln31_en_web_special_mtf_02.pdf


A very good video on MTF by Canon's Larry Thorpe is here: https://youtu.be/iBKDjLeNlsQ
This one by John Galt is also look worthy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v96yhEr-DWM

But these two videos are video oriented.

One thing to keep in mind is that MTF at lower frequencies dominates perceived sharpness. So, say the 20 lp/mm curve is far more important than 40 lp/mm. But when we pixel peep we actually look at 73 lp/mm (on the P45+).

MTF curves describe how the optical system behaves, but they normally only illustrate sharpness in the plane of focus and most often at infinity. The plane of sharpness can be very thin, so out of focus rendition is also important, and the normal set of MTF curves will not tell about that.

A bad property of almost all lenses is what now days often is called longitudinal chromatic aberration. This causes magenta/green fringing at large apertures. Very few lenses are without it, here is a list I know of: Coastal Optics 60/4 macro, Otus 85/1.4, Otus 55/1.4, Zeiss 135/2.0 APO Sonnar, Voigländer APO Lanthar 125/2.5. I could add the Zeiss Superachromats, I would think. Zeiss is taking great pride in the Otuses being without colour fringing at full aperture.

This video offers some excellent insights: https://youtu.be/9cnEnRADDLo

Hope this is some help…

Best regards
Erik








Erik, thank for your efforts. I confess, I do not know how to interpret these graphs. Perhaps a simple tutorial?
Obliged to you,
David
« Last Edit: January 05, 2016, 02:12:51 am by ErikKaffehr »
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alan_b

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2016, 02:54:48 am »

A bad property of almost all lenses is what now days often is called longitudinal chromatic aberration. This causes magenta/green fringing at large apertures. Very few lenses are without it, here is a list I know of: Coastal Optics 60/4 macro, Otus 85/1.4, Otus 55/1.4, Zeiss 135/2.0 APO Sonnar, Voigländer APO Lanthar 125/2.5. I could add the Zeiss Superachromats, I would think. Zeiss is taking great pride in the Otuses being without colour fringing at full aperture.

Add the C645 120/4 APO-Makro-Planar to that list.
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deliberate1

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Re: Looking for feedback on Contax 645 lenses
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2016, 08:41:29 am »

Hi,

MTF measures contrast at different resolutions. Take my P45+ back. It has 6.8 micron pixels, so it can resolve 1000/(2*6.8 )=73.5 lp/mm.


Hope this is some help…

Best regards
Erik

Erik, I am obliged for your tutorial which I will study this evening with a generous single malt in hand. At the end, when both have been consumed,  I may still not understand it, but I will certainly feel better about my own circle of confusion.
Best,
David
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