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Author Topic: Shooting with the masters - William Neil  (Read 15260 times)

kencameron

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2015, 03:15:00 pm »

I've been a visitor here for 8 years and read many articles but can't remember watching a single video.
I bought a couple of the old Reichman/Schewe video series which provided useful information at the time and were always entertaining because of the interplay/tension between the co-stars, but more recent offerings haven't impressed at least in sample form.


Addition: Oh dear, another post about the good old days.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2015, 03:19:02 pm by kencameron »
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Rob C

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2015, 03:27:28 pm »

I bought a couple of the old Reichman/Schewe video series which provided useful information at the time and were always entertaining because of the interplay/tension between the co-stars, but more recent offerings haven't impressed at least in sample form.


Addition: Oh dear, another post about the good old days.


Why not? They were often bloody good ones! At least, many of mine were.

;-)

Rob C

Rand47

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2015, 12:48:18 pm »

Wow, I'm a bit surprised at the "give me text and forget the video" comments.  In terms of "learning content only" I guess there's some value, I suppose, for those who learn best that way.  But I don't think that these videos are about "learning content" only, or perhaps even primarily.  In an age where we've gone from having conversations to sending text message and 147 character sound-bites, what I have come to call "signaling" as opposed to relating/engaging, this sort of video conversation/story is wonderful.  Animals "signal," humans (used to be) story tellers.  Since we've entered an age where material reductionism seems to hold the field, we're as a result, sadly, losing our humanity.

I find it refreshing to watch a video like this.  To get a sense of "the person" is as important to me as any content that I might walk away with.  Hearing a bit of his life story, how it has shaped his thinking, to see and experience his body language, mode of expression; to get a bit of his personality, temperament, etc. is very nice. 

Chances are I'll never have the opportunity to meet William Neil, but Kevin has given me the privilege of visiting with him and learning from him about more things than technical stuff.  KUDOs to LULA for this.  Much like the conversation with Brooks Jensen, this kind of vicarious interaction with creative folk enriches my own experience as a "story telling" human being.


My .02

Rand
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 12:52:36 pm by Rand47 »
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Patricia Sheley

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2015, 01:23:43 pm »

Know nothing about you Rand but glad that there are still some of you out there. So glad you spoke this opinion...it echoes many I hope, who gratefully accept  any and every opportunity to "experience" and "understand" and see a bit of what is rapidly deteriorating before our very eyes. (perhaps they [eyes and their sockets] too will be replaced on 5 gallon heads by tech sensors),  as sense and vision appears to be on the road to devaluation/obsolescence as the tech thumb has risen and changed in function...
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Tony Jay

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2015, 05:13:57 pm »

Wow, I'm a bit surprised at the "give me text and forget the video" comments.  In terms of "learning content only" I guess there's some value, I suppose, for those who learn best that way.  But I don't think that these videos are about "learning content" only, or perhaps even primarily.  In an age where we've gone from having conversations to sending text message and 147 character sound-bites, what I have come to call "signaling" as opposed to relating/engaging, this sort of video conversation/story is wonderful.  Animals "signal," humans (used to be) story tellers.  Since we've entered an age where material reductionism seems to hold the field, we're as a result, sadly, losing our humanity.

I find it refreshing to watch a video like this.  To get a sense of "the person" is as important to me as any content that I might walk away with.  Hearing a bit of his life story, how it has shaped his thinking, to see and experience his body language, mode of expression; to get a bit of his personality, temperament, etc. is very nice. 

Chances are I'll never have the opportunity to meet William Neil, but Kevin has given me the privilege of visiting with him and learning from him about more things than technical stuff.  KUDOs to LULA for this.  Much like the conversation with Brooks Jensen, this kind of vicarious interaction with creative folk enriches my own experience as a "story telling" human being.


My .02

Rand
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Ray

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2015, 05:40:02 pm »

I'm surprised the thread has been devoted entirely to the slightly negative part of my original post, which was more of a 'by the way', postscript comment.

One of the main points I got from the video, which I can relate to, is the concept that an awe-inspiring scene which might have been photographed many thousands of times as a result of the reputation of the place attracting countless visitors, tends to be photographed with a wide-angle lens, producing results which might be very similar to coutless other shots from the same location.

However, within such a scene, there can also be countless, interesting subsets, or smaller scenes, which can be accessed through the use of a telephoto lens and/or by spending more time walking around within that environment which is usually photographed as a whole from some viewing platform.

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Rob C

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2015, 04:09:17 am »

I'm surprised the thread has been devoted entirely to the slightly negative part of my original post, which was more of a 'by the way', postscript comment.

One of the main points I got from the video, which I can relate to, is the concept that an awe-inspiring scene which might have been photographed many thousands of times as a result of the reputation of the place attracting countless visitors, tends to be photographed with a wide-angle lens, producing results which might be very similar to coutless other shots from the same location.

However, within such a scene, there can also be countless, interesting subsets, or smaller scenes, which can be accessed through the use of a telephoto lens and/or by spending more time walking around within that environment which is usually photographed as a whole from some viewing platform.


Isn't the above kinda obvious? It's in need of explanation for folks to know that? Folks in LuLa?

Rob C
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 09:21:28 am by Rob C »
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Ray

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2015, 08:02:09 am »


Isn't the above kinda obvious? It's needs explanation for folks to know that? Folks in LuLa?

Rob C

I guess that must be the explanation, Rob.  ;)
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hsteeves

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2015, 01:21:01 pm »

I am more interested in getting to know the man rather than the f-stop.  The whyness over the howness.  I like this video series and look forward to the last two installments.
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Rob C

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2015, 02:55:01 pm »

I am more interested in getting to know the man rather than the f-stop.  The whyness over the howness.  I like this video series and look forward to the last two installments.

That's pretty much what I seek from photographer-related videos too; but the list of those who interest me enough is short.

Rob C

kencameron

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2015, 05:00:19 pm »

That's pretty much what I seek from photographer-related videos too; but the list of those who interest me enough is short.
Rob C
But surely you do have some sense that there might be photographers out there who aren't on your current list because you haven't yet encountered their work?
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Ken Cameron

kencameron

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2015, 05:04:07 pm »

Wow, I'm a bit surprised at the "give me text and forget the video" comments.  In terms of "learning content only" I guess there's some value, I suppose, for those who learn best that way.  But I don't think that these videos are about "learning content" only, or perhaps even primarily.
Good point. I have been thinking of LuLa mainly as a source of instructional videos, but there is certainly a world of value and interest out there in taking a broader approach.
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Ken Cameron

Rob C

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2015, 05:25:57 pm »

But surely you do have some sense that there might be photographers out there who aren't on your current list because you haven't yet encountered their work?


I'm sure that there are thousands of them; however, my time is getting shorter, as it is for everyone else, and I already have a massive 'favourites' list on the computer to which I seek to add no more! I forget some of those already on said list and rediscover them with surprise...

Partly, my interests are limited to specific genres of which the main men - or women - are already on the list, and as the vast majority are of my own generation or before, and as the whole digital world and its over-retouched android models don't turn on my imagination, modern wonders are, to me, not. In fact, I am ever more amazed at how well photographers working in fashion, before I even knew what it was, managed to do what they did with what was to hand in their era. Stylistic quirks I imagined belonged to the 50s/60s were alive and well decades before. There's a wonderful world in history!

If you go over to PJ work, I think the same truth holds there, too: what was going on before digital was plenty good enough! As I'm not much concerned with landscape, most of the contemporary people are, and will ever remain unknown to me. Ditto the 'art' stars and great 'conceptionalists' and masters of the 'installation'.

My wee head can only enjoy so much. It's interests are not universal.

;-)

Rob C

P.S. On top of that, where on Earth could I store my musical loves if all the available space was used up?

Dave Millier

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2015, 04:17:46 am »

Interesting you should think this - I think this is a very personal view.  Part of my day job is making corporate videos for our internal Youtube type channel. I've being doing this for several years now and have been able to build up a significant amount of data about usage.

When we started, our basic stats looked promising, there was lots of traffic to the video channel.  But we were suspicious based on the informal verbal feedback we had received, so we implemented a different kind of stats recording.  Instead of merely counting views, we collected stats on how many people watched the first 10%, the second 10%,third 10% etc.

What we saw was a bit of a shock. Basically, people watched the first minute, then skipped to the last minute. If the video was more than about 3 minutes long, they rarely bothered at all.

Now, admittedly this is in a corporate environment and these videos weren't intended to entertain. What we learned was that when people are busy, they are impatient and in a hurry. When they are impatient and in a hurry, they want key information as fast as possible. A well written web page, carefully chunked and with good headings, with the most important info at the start supports the scanning behaviour of people in a hurry. Video doesn't, it is too linear and real time.  Video is a tedious and painful medium for conveying info to people in a hurry.

Where video does work well, is for entertainment, when you have time to kill.  It is also good for conveying visual sequence based guidance (such as how to assemble something). It is a specialist medium.

Text is still the most effective medium if you only have one channel available to you.

p.s.

Quite amusing that you like Michael's onscreen presence so much. Ever since I first subscribed to the DVD journal, my partner throws up her hands and runs out of the house every time Michael appears.  Not meaning to be unkind to Michael but she find him to be a most boring, droning, unlistenable speaker. Personal tastes play a part, as do accents and nationalities to different listeners. I don't mind his presenting style so much, but I do wish he'd get a move on, everything does seem to be stuck in molasses. Playing at 1.5x speed might be better!


Sorry folks, but I entirely disagree. Reading or flicking quickly through text to find those hidden nuggets of information is one thing, a bit like studying, whereas sitting back and watching a talking head video interview, is much more informative, entertaining and inclusive.

I also think that the majority of people nowadays, find watching video a much more convenient and effective way to absorb content, than the old method of studying text, as the nuanced ideas, methods and even body language etc, can be fully communicated to the viewer a lot more easily, accurately and entertainingly through video.

Just my 2p’s worth.

Good interview Kevin BTW, I must admit I didn’t think you had the greatest of interview styles as compared to Michael, which is someone I am afraid you are always going to be compared to, as you normally seem a little on edge and occasionally lost for direction when asking questions, but with these two videos you are superb, you are relaxed, entertaining and have developed a good sense of where best to dig down to reveal the essence of what makes William Neil tick photographically. Excellent work!

I really look forward to viewing the rest of the William Neil interview segments of this series and hopefully to many more “Master” interviews, I think you might have struck gold here Kevin, well done that man!

Dave
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Rob C

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2015, 05:10:37 am »

Part of the problem, I think, is in photography itself: it's identity is in the doing, but its manifestation in the done. In between lies nothing much to talk about. Unless your bag is gear, when it could just as well be anything mechanical/technical else at all.

Dave Millier is spot on regarding the subconscious judgements made by the viewer on watching a new video: even hangin' on, in hope, for five minutes can sometimes be tedious, regardless of who is on the screen. I can imagine few more painful minutes than watching some sporting star talk about his 'job'... However, I can certainly enjoy listening to people like Keef the Stone talking about life: there's a great one on the BBC that coincided with the release of the book Life. Not only do I enjoy some of the music, not all, but it is of a time so important to me, personally. I distinctly remember standing in the reception of some studio in London with Satisfaction throbbing away inside an inner, distant room that I never got to see... I think you have to bring a helluva lot of yourself into any video you are about to watch.

Not really a matter of being anyone's fault - more just how it is.

Rob C

Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2015, 09:56:08 am »


Quite amusing that you like Michael's on screen presence so much. Ever since I first subscribed to the DVD journal, my partner throws up her hands and runs out of the house every time Michael appears.  Not meaning to be unkind to Michael but she find him to be a most boring, droning, unlistenable speaker. Personal tastes play a part, as do accents and nationalities to different listeners. I don't mind his presenting style so much, but I do wish he'd get a move on, everything does seem to be stuck in molasses. Playing at 1.5x speed might be better!

Dave, my wife would certainly agree with your partner, so perhaps Michael’s somewhat technical style is not very ‘photographer’s wife friendly’, as she finds his style to be and I quote, “a bit full of himself”, and I suppose I can see what she means, but when you know your stuff as well as he does and it is backed up by the decades of experience that he has, then I suppose it might be quite difficult not to come across as being self confident.

But the real reason I think Michael and Chris really nail it in the video journals and other videos on Lula, is their deep and obvious belief and love of what they are doing and the natural enthusiasm they both put into doing it. Michael comes across as a photographer who is both genuinely and deeply into photography, he speaks from within and tells it like it is as he sees it, whereas a lot of other online photo vids these days, seem to me to be presented by people who are doing a job and even though sometimes it’s a really good job they are doing, it is still a job to them and that job happens to be photography. This might be a subtle and possibly negligible difference to other people, but it certainly comes across to me and is why I like the video journals so much, because they are based on genuine photography, done and presented by a genuinely enthusiastic photographer and all captured seamlessly by Chris, a genuinely enthusiastic videographer, who also happens to be very good at showing us great compositional single shot images, but using a video camera.

If you are prepared to dig around on the net, then you can occasionally find other examples of this thing that I am referring to here as ‘genuineness’, but you have to dig deep to find them, so here is an example of a video by Wayne Gudmunson in Iceland, which I also enjoy watching and that ticks all the boxes for me.  :)

Dave
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AlfSollund

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2015, 02:01:24 am »

I've been a visitor here for 8 years and read many articles but can't remember watching a single video.

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LesPalenik

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2015, 10:25:05 am »

I don't know if it was the interviewer or the interviewee but it felt awkward watching the two video clips.

To me, it felt more awkward to read such a putdown than watching a quite interesting video.
If the first video felt awkward, why to watch the second?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2015, 12:17:40 pm »

... my partner throws up her hands and runs out of the house every time Michael appears.  Not meaning to be unkind to Michael but she find him to be a most boring, droning, unlistenable speaker....everything does seem to be stuck in molasses...

I envy you.

You must be a really, really, really very good old buddy with Michael when you can say such things to his face publicly. I am sure you guys just laugh it off, hug it out and go for a drink, right?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 12:26:20 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Shooting with the masters - William Neil
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2015, 12:26:02 pm »

To me, it felt more awkward to read such a putdown...

Indeed, Les.

(Anti) social etiquette of the Age of the Internet? That the lines between what we say to people's faces publicly (as is the case in this example), and what we say about someone in the circle of our friends and privacy of our home got so blurred that they seem non-existent.
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