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Author Topic: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?  (Read 3010 times)

HSakols

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Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« on: November 19, 2015, 12:38:17 pm »

There has been a lot written on this forum about quality photo papers such as Canson Baryta or Ilffor Graleri Prestige Gold Fiber papers. These papers look intriguing but to get the most out of them I need a good profile and they are expensive.  What about just using something like Epson Utra Premium Luster?  From what I understand Epson's profiles are just fine and the paper is much cheaper.  Can one really see the difference one your prints are matted? I ask because I am almost out of Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl that I have used for years and the fact that I give most of my work away making this an expensive hobby. 
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digitaldog

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2015, 12:54:06 pm »

These papers look intriguing but to get the most out of them I need a good profile and they are expensive.  What about just using something like Epson Utra Premium Luster?
They (the 3rd party papers) should supply ICC profiles. How good they are varies! Maybe I'm an old fart, I like Premium Luster. The problem is the profiles supplied for that paper by Epson are not so great (they are the Seiko profiles, not the one's built in the US by Epson for other papers which are excellent). But I build my own profiles for Luster so not an issue. There's an example of how that profile handles blues (NOT well) here: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=105435.msg869559#msg869559
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Jager

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2015, 01:07:35 pm »

There has been a lot written on this forum about quality photo papers such as Canson Baryta or Ilffor Graleri Prestige Gold Fiber papers. These papers look intriguing but to get the most out of them I need a good profile and they are expensive.  What about just using something like Epson Utra Premium Luster?  From what I understand Epson's profiles are just fine and the paper is much cheaper.  Can one really see the difference one your prints are matted? I ask because I am almost out of Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl that I have used for years and the fact that I give most of my work away making this an expensive hobby.



Well, you're kind of conflating two different issues... papers themselves, and the profiles needed to get the most out of them.

I would disagree with your implication that custom profiles are necessary.  In my experience the canned profiles provided by the major paper manufacturers usually work just fine.

Ultimately, use whatever papers make you happy.  If you like Epson Ultra Premium Luster, by all means go with that.  But the fact that a lot of us use a variety of papers - most of which are anything but exotic - suggests that there are good reasons for all those choices.

Part of the joy of photography and printmaking for me is matching an image to an appropriate paper, for a given use.  I love that aspect of the craft.

But there's nothing at all wrong with settling on one paper and using that for everything.  A lot of folks do that.

Just keep it fun...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2015, 01:11:06 pm by Jager »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2015, 02:02:49 pm »

There has been a lot written on this forum about quality photo papers such as Canson Baryta or Ilffor Graleri Prestige Gold Fiber papers. These papers look intriguing but to get the most out of them I need a good profile and they are expensive.  What about just using something like Epson Utra Premium Luster?  From what I understand Epson's profiles are just fine and the paper is much cheaper.  Can one really see the difference one your prints are matted? I ask because I am almost out of Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl that I have used for years and the fact that I give most of my work away making this an expensive hobby.

Ilford's own latest generation of profiles that you can download from their website for your printer are actually very good. Unless your printer behaves very differently from the one of the same model that Ilford used to create their profile, their profile should work well for you, and it's free. Epson's latest profiles made in the USA are also very good - my experience with using them - periodically for comparison work (normally I make my own profiles because I am equipped to do so and it's not that big a deal - after the learning curve, which is also not that steep for most normal purposes).

The main things to know - in general - about paper choices are three: (1) Lustre and gloss papers have higher gamut, deeper blacks and better shadow tone separation that achievable on the whole from matte papers. So you make this basic choice depending on whether you prefer the tonal performance of the paper or its "feel". (Personally I go for the former - I don't care what the paper feels like, except for certain kinds of moody or gritty photos that are well-suited to matte treatment.) (2) Paper choice is largely a matter of taste; for example, I see Andrew likes Premium Luster, I'm not that crazy about it - I find it hard to handle and too bluish. To know what you like best you need to try a variety of papers with a variety of your own photos. It's all up to you. (3) Longevity: some papers have OBAs (optical brightening agents) in them, others don't. As the OBA effect fades, the true underlying paper colour shows up and it will be warmer in tone; whether it happens evenly or not determines whether the photo is a mess and for how long. As well, the better papers and inks are specifically formulated to last many years without showing signs of deterioration. There are other papers and inks produced mainly for price and for which longevity is not a prime consideration.

You need to make your choices based on your preferences or priorities and do some experimenting to decide what works best for you.
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digitaldog

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2015, 04:16:44 pm »

Paper choice is largely a matter of taste; for example, I see Andrew likes Premium Luster, I'm not that crazy about it - I find it hard to handle and too bluish.
I like Exhibition Fiber more, but it's a lot more expensive and man is it delicate. And to be honest, when I make prints, it's usually to evaluate color after which, they land in the trash or some drawer. The very few prints I've made for myself that end up being framed are Exhibition Fiber but look at it the wrong way, it's scratched. And some images just call out for a matt paper.
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HSakols

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2015, 06:49:00 pm »

Quote
(1) Lustre and gloss papers have higher gamut, deeper blacks and better shadow tone separation
That is why I prefer a luster paper.  Thanks for all of your thoughtful responses.  I guess I will have to buy a sample pack and start experimenting myself.  I would like to see my work printed on a Baryta.
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AFairley

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2015, 08:12:22 pm »

I have opted for the Canson Baryta over EEF because it has a lower OBA load and its not that much warmer than the EEF.  I prefer the surfaces of the Canson and EEF to the Epson Lustre, but also I'm old enough to think that RC papers are not "real" photo papers.
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unesco

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2015, 07:07:52 am »

I have recently discovered Epson Hot Press line, if you would like to stay with Epson for fine art matt papers. In my opinion they are of comparable quality to Hmhle. Blacks are really deep, surface nicely smooth, colors truly nice and ICC profiles made by Epson really good (US origin?). Price is really high, especially in Europe, but worth it - the first time I like MK print :-).
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rdonson

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2015, 09:32:08 am »

I'll probably be in the minority on this one but in the non-rag Baryta universe this is my favorite.  I've produced some very nice prints with it on my Epson P800.

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/hahnemuehle-photo/p/Product/show/45/638.html
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2015, 10:31:02 am »

I'll probably be in the minority on this one but in the non-rag Baryta universe this is my favorite.  I've produced some very nice prints with it on my Epson P800.

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/en/digital-fineart/hahnemuehle-photo/p/Product/show/45/638.html

Not surprising; should be fine - gamut shape and gamut volume are very close to those of Ilford Goid Fibre Silk or Canson Baryta Photographique for the same printer. I suspect seeing prints of the same photo side by side one would be very hard pressed to notice any significant difference of tone or colour rendition between the three papers.
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deanwork

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2015, 04:55:06 pm »

always exotic
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Dale_Cotton2

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Re: Exotic Papers or Just stick with Epson?
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2015, 10:13:40 pm »

There has been a lot written on this forum about quality photo papers such as Canson Baryta or Ilffor Graleri Prestige Gold Fiber papers. These papers look intriguing but to get the most out of them I need a good profile and they are expensive. What about just using something like Epson Utra Premium Luster? From what I understand Epson's profiles are just fine and the paper is much cheaper. Can one really see the difference one your prints are matted? I ask because I am almost out of Ilford Galerie Smooth Pearl that I have used for years and the fact that I give most of my work away making this an expensive hobby.

I can't compare Epson Luster to the Ilford Galerie Pearl from personal experience, but from all I've read the Ilford is a bit heavier and has a bit more of a quality feel. Both are RC (resin coated) papers, which means they've been engineered for maximum toughness together with excellent colour characteristics. (RC inkjet papers in general are very much akin to the papers used by photo labs to make the set of 4x6 inch prints we associate with snapshot film photography.) For those who think in terms of gallery and connoisseur sales RC papers have neither a reputation for longevity nor any pretense at artistic cachet. Since you talk of giving prints away and of your concern re expense, I'd say by all means go with RC. If anyone wants to pay you for a print, then you can start talking fibre, cotton rag, and baryta.

Since I print 95% for my own use, I not only routinely use RC, but I use an Epson Luster clone that looks exactly like the Epson product and gives exactly the same results as the Epson product using the Epson Luster profile that came with my 3880. I strongly suspect it is indeed the same paper from the same mill but re-badged as Inkpress Luster. Depending on where you live you may have access to some other clone that is also the same paper, just in a different package.

That said, just because a paper says it's an RC luster, doesn't mean it has anything like the quality of the Epson and Inkpress Lusters (or of the Ilford Gallerie you're used to). If you want to go this route, and the Inkpress clone is not available where you live, I'd ask on this forum for alternatives.

Another point to consider. The Ilford Gold Fibre Silk that people are so fond of has an extremely fragile surface. The merest brush of one sheet's edge over the printed surface of another sheet, for example, is enough to leave a scratch, or at least a scuff. The word silk in the paper name apparently refers to the lack of texture in its surface. This lack of texture, combined with the lack of the polyethylene/resin coating, seems to go hand-in-hand with scratch proneness. (Leaving the print to dry for a full week does reduce this scratch proneness to a certain degree.)
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