Nikon Announces Development of the Nikon D5 DSLR Camera

[John Koerner]

Do you really think, as a landscape photographer, that you will get better images out of a 20 MP "pro oriented DSLR" than out of your "landscape photographer oriented" D810?

Sorry, being enthusiastic is OK, but being a realist is also OK! Still friends?

Best regards
Erik

Do you really think, as a sports or nature photographer, that you have time to set up a triple, activate live view, and achieve perfect micro-focus ... in absolutely optimal light ... on a fast moving player or animal?

I agree, being enthusiastic is okay, but comparing apples to oranges is not.

Still friends?

[Alan Goldhammer]

It's been officially announced together with a pro DX body called D500.

LOL!  I got tired of waiting for this upgrade and took advatage of the discount last month to move on to a D810 from my D300.  Will likely gift the D300 to my daughter as the resale value is not worth the hassle.

[John Koerner]

a pro DX body called D500.
Cheers,
Bernard

After looking at the specs, it does seem like the D500 is the perfect "can't complain about a thing" APS-C option.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi John,

My response was addressed to Bernard, who shoots landscape a lot.

But my take is that you would probably choose the D5 for action and high ISO and a camera like the D810 or the 5Ds/5DsR for landscape work, where you need the detail and can take the time.

Personally, I am shooting Sony A7rII and I see me phasing me over to Canon lenses as I think they offer better quality at a lower price than Sony lenses and give me the option of using a HCam Master TS on the Sony, which is not usable with Sony lenses.

Still friends…

Best regards
Erik

Do you really think, as a sports or nature photographer, that you have time to set up a triple, activate live view, and achieve perfect micro-focus ... in absolutely optimal light ... on a fast moving player or animal?

I agree, being enthusiastic is okay, but comparing apples to oranges is not.

Still friends?

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi,

Comparing P1's IQ 3 100MP back to Nikon D5, I cannot see what relevance AF has. You will never get 100 MP without careful and deliberate focusing, mirror lock up and things like that. With a good workflow, a Phase One camera may reach 100 MP. They have both leaf shutters and and electronic first shutter curtain, two ways of reducing vibrations from shutter.

Do you really think, as a landscape photographer, that you will get better images out of a 20 MP "pro oriented DSLR" than out of your "landscape photographer oriented" D810?

Sorry, being enthusiastic is OK, but being a realist is also OK! Still friends?

Erik,

I meant within their respective domains of applications obviously.

I have been doing stitches in the hundreds of megapixels for many years and rarely feel limited by stitching. 100mp in a back doesn't enable much I wasn't able to do already, and certainly not much more than what 80mp backs were able to do already. As discussed in depth elsewhere, the combination of features in the IQ3 100MP makes it potentially appealing, but pure image quality for ladscape will be incremental at best.

On the other hand I also shoot fast action subjects using the D750, refered to by many users as having the best available AF until now, and although it is very good there are still many images I cannot capture with it yet.

So I am saying that there is much more room for technological imprivement in the domain of auto focusing than there is in terms of very high image quality.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers,
Bernard

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Bernard,

I don't disagree. It is sort of horses for the courses.

Personally, I do a lot of stitching, but it is mostly to increase field of view, as an alternative to cropping.

Regarding AF accuracy, I don't really have a problem as I don't normally shoot action and often focus manually with live view. Now, just as an example, I have seen your images of Japanese horseback riders shooting arrows, they are just great and I see the need of accurate AF for that kind of shooting.

Roger Cicala at Lensrentals had some studies on AF accuracy and found that older generation Canons and Nikon were lacking in accuracy. He also found that late generation Canon cameras 1DX, 7DII and 5DIII had accurate AF when combined with late generation lenses. Don't know about Nikon.

For me, it is like that for what I do, I always prefer the highest resolution camera I can find/afford. Just wish I could also afford the best lenses. And oh yes, I would like to be able to carry those lenses to the places were I need them most.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

I meant within their respective domains of applications obviously.

I have been doing stitches in the hundreds of megapixels for many years and rarely feel limited by stitching. 100mp in a back doesn't enable much I wasn't able to do already, and certainly not much more than what 80mp backs were able to do already.

On the other hand I also shoot fast action subjects using the D750, refered to by many users as having the best available AF until now, and although it is very good there are still many images I cannot capture with it yet.

So I am saying that there is much more room for technological imprivement in the domain of auto focusing than there is in terms of very high image quality.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Guillermo Luijk]

In the Nikon D5 specs we see the camera reaches an amazing ISO 3.280.000. Of course I'm not expecting a high quality image with such low exposure, but the figure is so high I wonder how the Nikon D5 sensor's DR may behave.

- Let's assume at ISO 3.280.000 the camera provides just 2 stops of really usable photographic DR (less would be ridiculous), this is equivalent to 4 stops in the DxOMark DR scale.
- We also know that sensors become ISOless at high ISOs (typ. above ISO3200), i.e. they loose a whole stop of DR for every stop ISO is pushed in the high ISO range

With these constraints, the D5 sensor can only become truly ISO invariant at very high ISO values, which is something new. Otherwise it would have an astronomical DR at base ISO:



Any thoughts? can this sensor be something really new to achieve these astronomical ISO figures in just one generation step?

Regards

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Any thoughts? can this sensor be something really new to achieve these astronomical ISO figures in just one generation step?

Hi Guillermo,

Too early to tell, but I presume noise reduction (not uncommon for Nikon) will play a major role.

Cheers,
Bart

[AlterEgo]

- Let's assume[/img]

Let's assume that Nikon did ISO by tag and that's it...

[BernardLanguillier]

Better high ISO is IMHO a great bonus, but AF is IMHO really the area where Nikon has generated high expectations with this camera.

Yes, having 1+ stop better compared to the D750 would already be wonderful (good ISO12800 instead of usable ISO6400), two stops would be out of this world. Nikon claims 3 stops better performance. I am not sure I believe them, but I am not too worried. Great ISO12800 and usable ISO25600 would be sufficient for my needs.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Sean H]

Personally, I am shooting Sony A7rII and I see me phasing me over to Canon lenses as I think they offer better quality at a lower price than Sony lenses and give me the option of using a HCam Master TS on the Sony, which is not usable with Sony lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, another question: sometime ago, in another thread, you told us that you had done an experiment by putting a certain Canon lens on the A7rII and found it to be sharper than the equivalent Sony lens (sorry I can't remember the details; this forum has become very lively since the announcement of the P1 100 MP back and there has been much to read). My question is: you must have had to use an adapter on the A7rII and so how was the autofocus on the Canon lens? I temporarily have problems with visual sharpness in one eye (though no problems with colour recognition/gamut) so I will be relying on a camera's autofocus (at least for most of the year) until my eye problem is treated.

Sean

[haring]

Unless one shoots fast action, Canon and Nikon bodies no longer really do a better job than their rivals (primarily Sony). And, for those who shoot fast action, it's hard to substantially improve upon the D4s and 1Dx in terms of high-ISO performance (due to limits of quantum efficiency and photon shot noise) or off-sensor PDAF performance (note that things like eye detection cannot be implemented on SLRs or any other design that doesn't compose and focus through the sensor).

Canon's greatest asset is its lens collection. Nikon's greatest asset is its Sony sensors.

I'd imagine Nikon would be ripe for a takeover by Sony at some stage if the trend continues.

That said, the D810 is probably the best all-round SLR for still photography at the moment - it can do everything pretty well, excels at some things (image quality, although it has recently been overtaken in pure resolution) and doesn't do anything badly. Focuses and tracks quickly and accurately, 5fps is fast enough for most things, high resolution, the most DR of any body out there, excellent low-ISO, decent high-ISO, dual cards, etc.

I totally agree!!! It is harder and harder to sell the latest DSLR models and outdo the D3, D4, 1Dx series. Similar to us, wedding photographers. It is harder and harder to be genuine and create more interesting and different wedding photos every year.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Sean,

Presently I have two Canon lenses that I use with the latest Metabones (4T or something) adapter. The two lenses are the 24/3.5 TSE LII that is a manual focus lens, the other is the 16-35/4L. I also have plans to buy a 24-70/28 LII, but it has to wait as I got way over budget  on both travel and camera buys in 2015.

The 16-35/4L works well on the A7rII. AF speed is OK, at least the way I am shooting. Would I shoot sports and stuff like that it would be slow.

The electronics coupling works decently well. But, I have seen some odd behaviour, even if it was infrequent. I had the camera locking up a couple of times (2-3) and happened that the lens did not stop on exposure. That could be because battery power dropping. Last time it happened, like two months ago it was just before battery went belly up.

This is my second Metabones, the first one was not reliable at all. So there are bad samples.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik, another question: sometime ago, in another thread, you told us that you had done an experiment by putting a certain Canon lens on the A7rII and found it to be sharper than the equivalent Sony lens (sorry I can't remember the details; this forum has become very lively since the announcement of the P1 100 MP back and there has been much to read). My question is: you must have had to use an adapter on the A7rII and so how was the autofocus on the Canon lens? I temporarily have problems with visual sharpness in one eye (though no problems with colour recognition/gamut) so I will be relying on a camera's autofocus (at least for most of the year) until my eye problem is treated.

Sean

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Me asking same questions. Let's assume a full well capacity of say 150000 electrons/pixel. So base ISO gives 150000 electrons/pixel. Let's assume base ISO = 100.

Than 3280000 ISO exposure would just collect something like five electrons per pixel, at saturation. Metaphysics involved?

Best  regards
Erik

In the Nikon D5 specs we see the camera reaches an amazing ISO 3.280.000. Of course I'm not expecting a high quality image with such low exposure, but the figure is so high I wonder how the Nikon D5 sensor's DR may behave.

- Let's assume at ISO 3.280.000 the camera provides just 2 stops of really usable photographic DR (less would be ridiculous), this is equivalent to 4 stops in the DxOMark DR scale.
- We also know that sensors become ISOless at high ISOs (typ. above ISO3200), i.e. they loose a whole stop of DR for every stop ISO is pushed in the high ISO range

With these constraints, the D5 sensor can only become truly ISO invariant at very high ISO values, which is something new. Otherwise it would have an astronomical DR at base ISO:



Any thoughts? can this sensor be something really new to achieve these astronomical ISO figures in just one generation step?

Regards

[Jack Hogan]

Me asking same questions. Let's assume a full well capacity of say 150000 electrons/pixel.

That would be nice.  However, according to Eric Fossum state of the art is around 3000e-/um^2.  Most cameras today are around 2.2-2.4ke-/um^2 (e.g. A7SII, D750, D7200, a7RII), Canons typically less than 2k.  The D5 at 150k would mean about 3600e-/um^2.

The only camera that gets close to that is the D810 at around 3300e-/um^2 and I always wondered what tricks they use to manage to achieve that.

Jack

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Let's assume that Nikon did ISO by tag and that's it...

There would still not be enough photons recorded to make a very usable image from. There must be something else than a mere tagging going on to make the resulting image palatable. Either multiple readouts (CMOS can be non-destructively read-out multiple times to average the read-noise), or some sort of binning, or plain blurring (or salt and pepper noise removal) to reduce the photon shot noise from those few photons with read-noise combined.

Cheers,
Bart

[AlterEgo]

There would still not be enough photons recorded to make a very usable image from.

usable for whom ? for a PJ shooting OOC JPG in a situation when even a web sized B/W photo worth a lot for as long as it is actually taken and ISO by tag starts for example (I exaggerate on purpose) from HI-1 ? you are not seriously thinking that D5 is intended for shooting landscapes @ nominal ISO 3million...

[Hans van Driest]

Hi Erik,

any particular reason you chose the Canon over the Sony 16-35 f4?
Are you not pleased with your ZA24-70, since you consider the Canon solution? Must say that I am very pleased with my ZA24-70 f2.8 on my A7R2 (and with the Sony 16-35 f4).

Hi Sean,

Presently I have two Canon lenses that I use with the latest Metabones (4T or something) adapter. The two lenses are the 24/3.5 TSE LII that is a manual focus lens, the other is the 16-35/4L. I also have plans to buy a 24-70/28 LII, but it has to wait as I got way over budget  on both travel and camera buys in 2015.

The 16-35/4L works well on the A7rII. AF speed is OK, at least the way I am shooting. Would I shoot sports and stuff like that it would be slow.

The electronics coupling works decently well. But, I have seen some odd behaviour, even if it was infrequent. I had the camera locking up a couple of times (2-3) and happened that the lens did not stop on exposure. That could be because battery power dropping. Last time it happened, like two months ago it was just before battery went belly up.

This is my second Metabones, the first one was not reliable at all. So there are bad samples.

Best regards
Erik

[Hulyss]

To stay on topic..... I think that Nikon have nothing to envies to sony on the sensor side. The D4/D4s sensor is exceptional, you'll see the D5 sensor is even more exceptional. In the genetic of those sensors there is no Sony dna at all and I find the color response of the Nikon sensors more pleasing (imho).

[razrblck]

I've read on Thom Hogan's site that both the D5 and D500 sensors have new CFAs. They are also both 20.9MP, and while the D5 sensor is clearly labeled as a Nikon design, there's no info on the D500 but it might as well be a scaled down version.

Sony seems to be able to scale up and down pixel wells based on density needed, so this might be something very similar.