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Author Topic: Does LR modify TIFF files ?  (Read 2864 times)

David Mantripp

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Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« on: November 15, 2015, 03:46:54 pm »

Hi,

I had a very nasty surprise this evening when I discovered that Silverfast HDR no longer recognised a large set of scanned TIFFs as being in it's "64bit HDRi" format.  After quite some investigation, I discovered that archived versions stored before I re-cataloged all my files in Lr were fine.  But with all versions in Lr, it could no longer apply the correct gamma, or find the infrared channel.  So, it seems that when cataloging a TIFF file, Lr makes some change to the header which clobbers Silverfast's pattern.   All the evidence is pointing this way - does it sound feasible ?

David.
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David Mantripp

adias

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 03:55:50 pm »

I know that Lr does not touch RAW files but I do not know about other file formats.
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digitaldog

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2015, 04:16:35 pm »

LR/ACR can write the parametric edits into the TIFF IF you apply something within Develop. IF SilverFast is having an issue, they need to address this. Cataloging the TIFF alone would not apply or later any metadata.
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David Mantripp

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2015, 04:29:13 pm »

Hmm.  Well, I just did a little test.  I scanned a photo in SF Studio, into 64bit HDRi format.  Opened it in SF 8 HDR, worked fine. Them imported into to Lr (2015 CC), reopened in SF 8 HDR, and it was no longer recognized as an HDRi.

All I did was import it, and Lr build a Smart Preview. That's it.  It has no metadata, and has not explicitly been in Develop, and does neither metadata nor develop badges in the Library icon.  But something has changed.  Do you maybe know of any TIFF inspector which might be used to take a peek ? I can't find anything useful for Mac.

Anyway, thankfully I had a pre-Lr backup.  I'll pass on the evidence to Silverfast, maybe they can come up with a fix.   Note, I've been doing exactly the same thing with Aperture for years with no impact on Silverfast, the attraction being that I can stack the original "archive" scan and derivatives together.  Although the stacking functionality in Lr is somewhat less evolved... 
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David Mantripp

digitaldog

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2015, 04:46:29 pm »

All I did was import it, and Lr build a Smart Preview. That's it.
That alone should not alter the data AFAIK. Did you check the date modified before and after import? Might be useful. What if you lock the file before import, does LR pop an error?
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David Mantripp

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2015, 04:53:40 pm »

Thanks for the feedback, Andrew. I didn't think of checking the timestamp, but it was modified around the time of import. The problem is, I couldn't say for sure if it was by Lr or SF HDR. I suspect the former, but I'll have to do another test to make sure. And it's way too late here now... I'll report back when I know more.
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David Mantripp

john beardsworth

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2015, 05:19:23 pm »

Have you got auto writing of metadata to xmp selected? Are you certain no metadata is being applied on import, by a metadata preset for example?
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David Mantripp

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2015, 03:10:19 pm »

Well, I've done some more tests, and ... it's complicated. To reply first to John, yes, I did have an import preset active to set copyright metadata.  I created a fresh scan, and then checked it in SF HDR.  All was ok. I did a few random edits, and exited.  SF HDR did not update the timestamp (which in itself is curious, as I understood that the "HDR RAW" option enables a type of non-destructive workflow where an edit state is added to the file. I guess it has some other way of doing this.).  I then disabled the preset, and imported into Lr. Checked timestamp again, no change.  SF HDR was still happy.  I added a keyword in Lr - no timestamp change, as expected.  Then I applied the metadata preset. This did update the timestamp, and the IPTC copyright was written to the file.  Not sure this is expected behaviour. However, SF HDR was still happy with the file and recognised it as one if it's own.  To cut a long story short, so long as SF HDR has opened the file once before Lr makes any changes, it doesn't care.  But if Lr gets there first, SF HDR rejects it as a foreign invader....   

I guess this is the very definition of "edge case", and I doubt anybody else here even remembers what "scanning" is :-). I'm not competent to judge the rights or wrongs here, but Andrew, John, I'd be interested in your opinions.  I'm tending towards "Lr should not really write to a file without an explicit user instruction, but also, provided Lr simply updates standard IPTC tags, SF really shouldn't care.
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David Mantripp

john beardsworth

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2015, 03:16:07 pm »

David

I also asked "Have you got auto writing of metadata to xmp selected?", which would be your explicit instruction. It's in Catalog Settings, Metadata.

John
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2015, 03:43:49 pm »

David

I also asked "Have you got auto writing of metadata to xmp selected?", which would be your explicit instruction. It's in Catalog Settings, Metadata.

John

You probably mean the setting for Include Develop Settings in metadata inside JPEG, TIFF, PNG and PSD files? And not xmp which never be written unless the file was a raw file.

David Mantripp

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2015, 03:46:03 pm »

David

I also asked "Have you got auto writing of metadata to xmp selected?", which would be your explicit instruction. It's in Catalog Settings, Metadata.

John

Ah.  I guess "learning to read" would be a good objective for me today.  Yes, I have.  Mea culpa.   I suppose I vaguely assumed that "xmp" = "Xmp sidecar", which of course it doesn't.  Right, that's absolved Lr of any wrongdoing.  When SF support gets back to me (sometime in 2017 I imagine) I'll take it up with them.  Thanks for taking the time to help me unravel this, much appreciated.
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David Mantripp

David Mantripp

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Re: Does LR modify TIFF files ?
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2015, 06:34:28 am »

Well, after a bit of discussion, the conclusion from Lasersoft side is:

Quote
(...)SilverFast uses the older Adobe metadata structure (IPTC IIM 4.1) whereas Photoshop variants like Lightroom are employing IPTC core XMP).
These are not simply compliant to each other, but a software using either, would need to be able to read the other and convert the metadata (...)

I have also discovered that Bridge CC clobbers the files somehow or the other. While I can accept that Lr does so, via an obscure preference that might be better OFF by default, I am less happy accepting the same from a glorified file browser. Also, I cannot work out exactly where it is doing it - all I did was build previews, nothing else. I've disabled IPTC Core, but anyway, my understanding is that this would have no effect unless I added some keywords, and I didn't. Bridge CS6 does not modify the files, only CC.

Anyway, I'm far from convinced that Lasersoft's design could not have been far better. For example they could have placed their HDR RAW in a DNG wrapper and used Silverfast-specific extensions to maintain settings. However, it is as it is, and my conclusion is that Silverfast 8.5 HDR and Adobe products do not mix.
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