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Author Topic: Leica SL Initial Thougts article  (Read 12450 times)

tnargs

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2015, 09:10:42 pm »

They said the 55 is comparable to the Otus.
Who said that?

That is clearly not what the lenscore.org results show.

Lensrentals. In their article this week on FE mount lenses.

They wrote, "the Sony 55 does very well on the MTF charts. Its center resolution is superb and it maintains sharpness very well to the edges. The Nikkor 58mm and Zeiss Otus 55m lenses are being tested here at f/1.4, which gives the Sony lens a bit of an unfair advantage, but it's still excellent and holding it's own against the best lenses in this range at the very least."

That's strong praise. Of course lensrentals are pragmatists, not listmakers. Lenscore looks like just another DxOMark with their love of numbers and weightings and aggregation. If #39 on lenscore is that good compared to #4, then why have a list?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2015, 09:50:24 pm »

Lensrentals. In their article this week on FE mount lenses.

They wrote, "the Sony 55 does very well on the MTF charts. Its center resolution is superb and it maintains sharpness very well to the edges. The Nikkor 58mm and Zeiss Otus 55m lenses are being tested here at f/1.4, which gives the Sony lens a bit of an unfair advantage, but it's still excellent and holding it's own against the best lenses in this range at the very least."

That's strong praise. Of course lensrentals are pragmatists, not listmakers. Lenscore looks like just another DxOMark with their love of numbers and weightings and aggregation. If #39 on lenscore is that good compared to #4, then why have a list?

Yes, f1.4 against f1.8 and speaking of sharpness alone. It seems to me you have things backward a bit. Both DxO and lensorg assess lenses more globally than an MTF test could. Whether they rank lenses in list isn't relevant. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 10:04:13 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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tnargs

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2015, 09:54:10 pm »

LOL
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zlatko-b

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2015, 12:01:33 am »

Lenscore looks like just another DxOMark with their love of numbers and weightings and aggregation. If #39 on lenscore is that good compared to #4, then why have a list?

Well, those lenses above #39 are really, really good — some renowned excellent lenses — but they won't crack DxO's famous oft-quoted "top ten" if they weren't tested on a 36mp body.  Some absolutely great Canon lenses don't have a chance at DxO's "top ten" because DxO has only tested them on 22mp bodies.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2015, 12:31:42 am »

Hi,

I don't think Lensrentals is a test site. They do a lot of testing as a part of their business but they only publish some of their findings. The results they publish are normally measured at full aperture. Most lenses improve a lot when stopped down.

MTF testing is widely used in the photographic industry, but it is clearly a measure only related to sharpness.

Lensscore actually discloses very little about their methods and how they calculate the values they publish, it is hard to know if those figures are relevant for my shooting.

With DxO mark it is a bit different, I never look the figure of merit but I go into measurements which allows me to find out strengths and weaknesses of the lenses I consider buying. That site is quite useful. The problem that their measurements are sensor based, so it is not really possible to compare say Canon lens with a Sony lens.

So I would say that DxO-mark test reports are actually useful, Lensrentals testdata is interesting. Lensscore sort of shows that expensive lenses are great lenses but say little about lenses in actual shooting situations.

Below are some screen dumps from DxO-mark tests with the Otus 55, Sony 55 and Nikon 24-120 zoom. DxO-mark gives a lot more information than Lensscore. One thing I see is that the Nikon 24-120 zoom is quite OK at optimum aperture. The Otus is probably best at around f/4.

The last figure compares the Sony 90/2.8G macro with the Otus 85/1.4, those lenses are pretty close at f/8. Would I shoot at f/1.4 the Otus would of course be the obvious choice.

Now, Lensrentals has published some slanted edge based test data on the 90/2.8G, but that uses data from the sensor (as also DxO-mark tests do). The slanted edge data was great and the measured MTF not so great. Lensrentals also checks sample variation and that was not that great on the Sony 90/2.8G.

By the way, I own the 90/2.8G and would say it is very good. I cannot compare with the Otus or say the Canon 100/2.8LII macro, as I own neither lens.

Best regards
Erik


Lensrentals. In their article this week on FE mount lenses.

They wrote, "the Sony 55 does very well on the MTF charts. Its center resolution is superb and it maintains sharpness very well to the edges. The Nikkor 58mm and Zeiss Otus 55m lenses are being tested here at f/1.4, which gives the Sony lens a bit of an unfair advantage, but it's still excellent and holding it's own against the best lenses in this range at the very least."

That's strong praise. Of course lensrentals are pragmatists, not listmakers. Lenscore looks like just another DxOMark with their love of numbers and weightings and aggregation. If #39 on lenscore is that good compared to #4, then why have a list?
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2015, 04:15:42 am »

Same here. When doing star trails or MW shots, I never use the EVF. I use the LCD screen with minimum brightness. Works fine. Much better than using an OVF which is as dark as the night sky...

For example, just this morning, before leaving for work, I went to my balcony to take a photo of the Venus - Jupiter conjunction. I used the A7II with the 55 lens, and I could see very clearly with the EVF. Mind you, this was in pre-sunrise, near dark conditions, at 7.10 am. Much easier than using an OVF.

mrtn

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2015, 04:21:18 am »

"This is Mercedes territory, not that of Ford"

IMO that is simply not true. If Canon/Nikon/Sony compares to Ford than the Leica SL compare not to Mercedes. Mercedes is expensive but not twice, or even threefold, more expensive than the competition (even only 10-20% compared to BMW/Audi/Jaguar).

Leica SL is Bugatti Veyron territory: a wannahave luxury accessory product for the millionaires/billionaires among us. Not for photographers who make a living out of it.
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pegelli

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2015, 05:15:14 am »

Electronic finders sound great - but try one in the dark doing Northern Lights. The brightness wipes out your night vision.
Have you tried to put viewfinder brightness at minimum? For me that works great when using an EVF for night shooting.
I also reduce the LCD brightness, but that only halfway between minimum and the midpoint and then they seem both equally bright and not blinding at night.
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pieter, aka pegelli

BJL

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2015, 04:52:16 pm »

Leica SL is Bugatti Veyron territory: a wannahave luxury accessory product for the millionaires/billionaires among us. Not for photographers who make a living out of it.
That's a bit of an exaggeration: the Leica premium is not as bad as the watch-as-male-jewelry premium, where lots of non-milionaires pay a premium of $5000 or more, or over 50 times as much, as for a Casio that tells time more accurately.  And it pales in comparison to the BMW-Mercedes-Lexus-Infiniti-etc. premium when it comes to extra dollars over a mainstream alternative with very similar functionality in practice.  (Given the number of Rolex-wearing luxury car drivers in this forum, I expect some dissent to these comparisons!)
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mgrayson

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2015, 05:48:43 pm »

My brother-in-law is a photographer making a living with a Leica S2. He would laugh long and hard at that characterization.
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Deardorff

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2015, 09:33:26 pm »

And what good is the OVF in this situation? I have more aurora shots than I care to admit. I use the non flipping screen.

Don't know the cameras you use but I can see to compose with the optical finder most of the time with a light show is in progress. A bit of moonlight and it is easier still.
The glare and bright light of the electronic finders and backs both ruin my night vision. I'll check composition after a shot or two to get it right and tweak it and then shoot without any of the brightness to cut down the vision. Put tape over the red light on the back as well.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2015, 09:44:53 pm »

I use a D800E for stills and D7000 that mainly shoot timelapse. I will sometimes use the OVF for quick framing but I always have to focus using liveview. Then I do test shots and chimp for framing usually.
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eronald

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2015, 09:06:51 am »

Yes, f1.4 against f1.8 and speaking of sharpness alone. It seems to me you have things backward a bit. Both DxO and lensorg assess lenses more globally than an MTF test could. Whether they rank lenses in list isn't relevant. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 You're just angry that you have to buy an MF Zeiss lens for the Nikon when you can get much of the same performance from an AF one for the Sony at fraction of the price - and size and weight.

 If one is a "50" shooter, then the Sony/Zeiss combo is probably what one wants. Zooms, teles etc ... goodbye Sony.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2015, 01:49:07 pm »

You're just angry that you have to buy an MF Zeiss lens for the Nikon when you can get much of the same performance from an AF one for the Sony at fraction of the price - and size and weight.

Not the least bit, I am all for better lenses at a cheaper price.

I can also get much of the same performance with the Sigma 50mm f1.4 and that hasn't prevented me from purchasing the Otii, because "much of" isn't the same as "all of". I have used the FE 55mm f1.8 and like it, it is a very good lens.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 02:01:59 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #34 on: October 26, 2015, 12:52:42 am »

The big issue with lenses is surely head to head comparisons or potentially the lack of them. The Sony system is more developed yet still doesn't have a lens with the same or similar specs to the 24-90mm, only the 24-70mm which is not a great performer. That the Leica lens weighs over 1 kg perhaps tells you why this is the case and also why they haven't attempted to make the SL the size of an A7.

Leica of course already have a system aimed at significant size saving with the M so creating another might be questionable. If someone wants a Leica though but doesn't want an M with everything that comes with that then I would guess a good quality mid range and tele zooms are quite likely to be what they want.
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Hulyss

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2015, 04:09:15 am »

Not the least bit, I am all for better lenses at a cheaper price.

I can also get much of the same performance with the Sigma 50mm f1.4 and that hasn't prevented me from purchasing the Otii, because "much of" isn't the same as "all of". I have used the FE 55mm f1.8 and like it, it is a very good lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

You are very gentle...

The FE 55 is as good as any f1.8 lens from Nikon. It is only a sharp lens. All other characteristics who can make it a "great" lens aren't here. Same goes for the Sigma art. It is sharp and only sharp. The Otus are not "only" sharp, they are gorgeous and completely worth the price. The 58mm nikkor is a great lens, if you have the good copy.

So all in one we face again some utter childish Sony fanboys, technicians over photographer Imho, and some frustrated ppl who do not accept the fact that some ppl have money and some other don't have money. Welcome on planet Earth guys.... Not worth the read.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 04:11:19 am by Hulyss »
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Rob C

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #36 on: October 26, 2015, 04:58:57 am »

You are very gentle...

The FE 55 is as good as any f1.8 lens from Nikon. It is only a sharp lens. All other characteristics who can make it a "great" lens aren't here. Same goes for the Sigma art. It is sharp and only sharp. The Otus are not "only" sharp, they are gorgeous and completely worth the price. The 58mm nikkor is a great lens, if you have the good copy.

So all in one we face again some utter childish Sony fanboys, technicians over photographer Imho, and some frustrated ppl who do not accept the fact that some ppl have money and some other don't have money. Welcome on planet Earth guys.... Not worth the read.


And that's the basis which underlines so much angst, envy and hatred in the world - LuLa not excluded. Your Leica may be a sin, but God help you if should you enjoy going Ferrari and I cannot...

Rob C

eronald

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #37 on: October 26, 2015, 02:53:11 pm »

You are very gentle...

The FE 55 is as good as any f1.8 lens from Nikon. It is only a sharp lens. All other characteristics who can make it a "great" lens aren't here. Same goes for the Sigma art. It is sharp and only sharp. The Otus are not "only" sharp, they are gorgeous and completely worth the price. The 58mm nikkor is a great lens, if you have the good copy.

So all in one we face again some utter childish Sony fanboys, technicians over photographer Imho, and some frustrated ppl who do not accept the fact that some ppl have money and some other don't have money. Welcome on planet Earth guys.... Not worth the read.

Some people have eyes, some are old. My days of manual focus are over. Even if it means that I have to substitute my own technical and inferior vision of a subject for the beautiful rendering of a superior lens. One can actually see this at work in the picture below, the rendering is too hard and wrecks the image.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 02:59:44 pm by eronald »
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Rob C

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2015, 06:46:59 pm »

Some people have eyes, some are old. My days of manual focus are over. Even if it means that I have to substitute my own technical and inferior vision of a subject for the beautiful rendering of a superior lens. One can actually see this at work in the picture below, the rendering is too hard and wrecks the image.

Edmund


You are right; it needs gentle!

Rob C

MatthewCromer

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Re: Leica SL Initial Thougts article
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2015, 11:17:19 am »

No discussion of the DPReview Leica SL samples?!

Please tell me their SL is defective! Hideous banding everywhere in the shadows, even at base ISO.
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