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Author Topic: Leica SL  (Read 19727 times)

Hywel

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2015, 04:37:00 pm »

I don't think it is fair to call any of these cameras crap. Everyone has different use cases after all, and all of these cameras are astonishing technological triumphs compared with the old Canon D30 I still have in my storeroom for sentimental reasons.

I did have a go at the SL earlier in the thread, but it was unfair of me. It was without having hands on of course, and it might just be sublime to use despite what look to me like ergonomics that are far from my own tastes.

I'm a bit of an iconoclast when it comes to ergonomics- I still think Lightroom is a ghastly mess, and Photoshop is even worse.

Clearly, few photographers agree with me (except for those few brave souls who prefer Aperture, Capture One, Phocus or DXO...)

BUT BUT BUT... the Leica does not even begin to tempt me to part with any cash. If it had been a mirrorless Leica S medium format with that wicked viewfinder, on the other hand, I'd definitely want to hire it for a day or two's test shoot.

I can see I might feel differently if I had a case full of Leica glass already. But even then I can't help thinking I'd be a lot more excited by a mirrorless EVF-driven Leica S.

Cheers, Hywel




« Last Edit: October 21, 2015, 04:38:56 pm by Hywel »
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eronald

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2015, 05:12:44 pm »


 I can't help thinking I'd be a lot more excited by a mirrorless EVF-driven Leica S.

Cheers, Hywel

Maybe we'll get that ... from Hasselblad or Pentax :)

Edmund
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Telecaster

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2015, 06:36:03 pm »

I don't think it is fair to call any of these cameras crap.

Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.

IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress. The "2" versions are more pleasant to use than the originals and have some nice functional improvements too. The A7r2's image quality is very impressive, far beyond my needs to be frank. The system does need a broader stable of native lenses, and the way certain features are implemented is annoying. OTOH I can use nearly every 35mm format lens I own on it, though with caveats when it comes to many wider rangefinder optics. (If someone were to make a Zeiss Contaflex adapter—a tricky proposition for multiple reasons—I could use every lens.)

My interest level in the new SL is pretty low. No strong feeling either way. Still I hope it does well 'cuz I have a sentimental fondness for Leica…and IMO the more players in the camera market the better.

-Dave-
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eronald

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2015, 06:57:06 pm »

Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.

IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress.
-Dave-

Ok, ok, I grovel and promise I will call it the Wondercam until I get one.

Edmund
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telyt

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2015, 07:43:46 pm »

You know, I think  you're right. I'll call the A7RII the wondercam from now on, as everyone here seems to agree that Sony has done a nice job. Of note, the fact that the A72 sells at less than E2K in Europe, so the wondercam is also doing wonders for Sony's bottom line :)

As far as the Leica is concerned, I'll change my Luxocam labelling when the first forum buyers defend it wit firsthand knowledge ...

Edmund

No prejudice there at all, Edmund.   ::)
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2015, 01:29:46 am »

Hi Dave,

I would agree on what you say about the A7x mark II versions. Personally I can live with any user interface if the image quality is great. I can set up the A7rII so it works for me.

Regarding Leica SL, it may be an excellent camera. It may be worth money for those who need or want it. Who would need a Leica SL? Perhaps someone shooting birds and having quite a few Leica R telefotos, just as an example. If the viewfinder works, response time is fast and high ISO performance is great it may just be the right camera for such a person. That person is not me :-)

Best regards
Erik


Yes, the Interwebs are already clogged with fanboy silliness. Let's try to be more real.

IMO the Sony A7x series is still a work in progress. The "2" versions are more pleasant to use than the originals and have some nice functional improvements too. The A7r2's image quality is very impressive, far beyond my needs to be frank. The system does need a broader stable of native lenses, and the way certain features are implemented is annoying. OTOH I can use nearly every 35mm format lens I own on it, though with caveats when it comes to many wider rangefinder optics. (If someone were to make a Zeiss Contaflex adapter—a tricky proposition for multiple reasons—I could use every lens.)

My interest level in the new SL is pretty low. No strong feeling either way. Still I hope it does well 'cuz I have a sentimental fondness for Leica…and IMO the more players in the camera market the better.

-Dave-
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tnargs

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2015, 02:02:49 am »

Most telling sentence from DPReview's hands-on:

"It took several DPR staffers to finally figure out how to change exposure modes."

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7448206943/a-lot-to-leica-hands-on-with-the-leica-sl-typ-601?slide=4

No, Leica. Seven thousand five hundred times no.
Why the 'no'? It's so easy.

Who cares that it's different, as long as it's quick and easy, which it is. DPR staffers want every new camera to be the same as every old camera, because they are constantly trying new cameras. Whereas an owner just wants one camera to work well.

I mean, we don't know how many DPR staffers it takes to change a light bulb.
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Hywel

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2015, 07:16:15 am »

I care that it is different. Even more so, I care that it is so unintuitive that a bunch of people who use lots of different cameras couldn't figure it out with the camera in hand.

Why? Because I use different cameras as the situation calls for it. I get stuff into muscle memory eventually, but for the first six months at least, I like to have these strange things called "labels" to tell me what to press if I have by chance forgotten how to do that particular thing on this particular camera.

When I've been shooting moving pictures for two weeks with a RED and a GH4, and I need to swap back to shooting stills this morning on a Hasselblad/Canon/Sony/whatever, I don't want the camera to hide the functions from me on unlabelled buttons. That confused DPR staffer will be me, especially for controls I use rarely, like.... well, like changing exposure mode actually. I usually shoot the whole day in Manual, but may head for Aperture priority at golden hour and forego the studio flash for the last hour of the shoot. So I actually change that setting only once or twice a day.

It's even worse if the unlabelled buttons have no tactile differentiation either. Position isn't enough for me to get stuff into muscle memory on a sensible timescale- I need the controls to have a certain feel, too.


For example, the Sony A7RII has two dials on the back at the top of the camera- one does shutter speed or program shift, one does exposure compensation. It is possible to get the wrong one, they are fairly close together, but they feel different, there's a knobbly bulge under the operating thumb for the EC dial whereas the bulge under the thumb for the shutter dial is smooth, and the shutter dial knurling is coarser than the EC dial so they feel different. Which means I can tell I've got my thumb on the wrong dial with the camera to my eye without having to twiddle it, notice it is doing something slightly different from what I expect by processing the math from the viewfinder, turning the dial back, and moving my thumb.

This for me is a good ergonomic feature of the A7RII.

An example of a bad one is the fact that the play and delete buttons are almost in the same place and feel pretty much identical- a pain if I want to queue up a review of the last shot in the EVF with the camera to my eye. Since I never, ever delete shots in the field, I've turned off the delete button (I might put something else there in due course once my muscle memory is much better attuned to the camera).

Although customisation is nice, it doesn't help when you haven't laid hands on the camera in a few weeks and can't remember where the hell the ISO button is on the damn thing.

Ideally I'd like smart buttons, each of which is a mini-screen and displays an icon for what it is currently set to. And I'd like each button and dial (or at least each one in reasonably close proximity on the camera) to have a tactile identifying feature- either a texture, or something next to it with a texture so you can tell which is which with your eyes closed.

But as I said higher in the thread, I'd also like a proper auto ETTR exposure mode- set the exposure such that no more than (user-settable) n% of pixels of any channel clip. And raw histograms in camera.

I'd also like someone to come up with a really well thought-out way to control focus points when you have 400 PDAF points and the camera has picked the wrong one- ideally with the camera to the eye. Touch screens and live view manual focus work just fine in my experience when shooting landscapes, but for my core fetish fashion activity I have to refocus quicker than that, adjusting to a fluid situation as the model poses. Bizarrely, for this use case the single central focus point/recompose and shoot method is the best I've found. It's actually a lot quicker to get the Hasselblad to refocus if it has chosen wrong than it is the A7RII; I ended up crippling my Canon's AF by setting central point AF only for these shoots because at least I *knew* then where I was focussing.

All large rear screens should fully articulate, be of iPhone retina quality and be touch screens, these days.

Menu systems should be designed by someone other than an infinite bunch of monkeys with typewriters (looking at you, Sony).

Zoom in on playback should give you actual 100% resolution (ideally from the RAW- if it has to shoot JPEG as well to achieve that, it should tell you in the damn manual). What do designers imagine we zoom in to 100% for? It is to check critical sharpness and focus, and for no other reason. So if the camera needs to generate a JPEG and render that when I zoom in to 100% on a RAW, it should do it as soon as I hit the zoom in button. I'll take a 0.3 second wait if that's what it takes to deliver me the visual info I need to properly assess the shot.

And many other gripes with the current state of camera ergonomics... none of which are specific to the SL, just illustrations of why I think there is a lot more to good camera UI design in the digital age than ANYONE has really explored yet. Not one digital camera really handles the way a top-flight film camera did. There's more variables, more data to show, more control options, it's a more complex beast altogether. Emulating film cameras is not the way to go, but nor in my opinion is unlabelled smooth control buttons, stacked menu systems, or pure touch screen control.

Cheers, Hywel






« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:21:41 am by Hywel »
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eronald

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2015, 07:28:31 am »

I care that it is different. Even more so, I care that it is so unintuitive that a bunch of people who use lots of different cameras couldn't figure it out with the camera in hand.

And many other gripes with the current state of camera ergonomics... none of which are specific to the SL, just illustrations of why I think there is a lot more to good camera UI design in the digital age than ANYONE has really explored yet. Not one digital camera really handles the way a top-flight film camera did. There's more variables, more data to show, more control options, it's a more complex beast altogether. Emulating film cameras is not the way to go, but nor in my opinion is unlabelled smooth control buttons, stacked menu systems, or pure touch screen control.

Cheers, Hywel

Cameras could be "skinned" like software. There is no excuse anymore for not offering a customisation SDK that lets programmers set up menus and button assignments  for you, maybe some custom applets like Raw histogram, and sell them as a package.

I see NO REASON why the setup for football-tracking sports shooters with 6-pound handheld telephotos should be the same as that for an architectural photographer with a shift lens doing panos off a tripod.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 07:34:56 am by eronald »
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jjj

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2015, 08:30:56 am »

Cameras could be "skinned" like software. There is no excuse anymore for not offering a customisation SDK that lets programmers set up menus and button assignments  for you, maybe some custom applets like Raw histogram, and sell them as a package.

I see NO REASON why the setup for football-tracking sports shooters with 6-pound handheld telephotos should be the same as that for an architectural photographer with a shift lens doing panos off a tripod.
Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #50 on: October 22, 2015, 09:12:36 am »

Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out

Some current cameras are quite customizable. You just have to go through the 500 page manual and figure it out:) So if you are shooting football from the side-lines, or shooting landscapes, you should learn how to customize your camera ref. frame rates, AF types, etc.

SZRitter

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #51 on: October 22, 2015, 09:48:44 am »

Never understood why any software is not completely customisable, it will also get rid of so much negative feedback.
No design is suitable for all customers, no matter how well thought out

As someone who builds software (ok, web developer, but with as technical as the back-end work is, they are full fledge software pieces) all I can say is NO. Bad idea. Building an API to access the core abilities of the device (ala smartphones) is not a bad idea, but allowing users to alter that core software is a horrible idea.

So, the core software package should be locked down, but allowing people to build new UIs/apps and load them is a great idea. Didn't Sony allow you to create apps for some of their cameras? And I know there have been a few Android powered cameras on the market.
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jjj

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #52 on: October 22, 2015, 09:56:54 am »

Some current cameras are quite customizable. You just have to go through the 500 page manual and figure it out:) So if you are shooting football from the side-lines, or shooting landscapes, you should learn how to customize your camera ref. frame rates, AF types, etc.
The minority of vendors doing the sensible thing does not negate the fact that it is the exception rather than the rule for software/hardware interfaces. Not doing so shows a sense of arrogance with the designers who think they know one way works best for everyone, despite their customers doing a huge variety of very different tasks

I have a E5II for when I don't want a big camera to lug around. Customised it quite thoroughly, without having read a huge manual. I simply sat down and went through the various options. Only had to check online as what a couple of abbreviations/symbols meant. It may be a faff, but once a camera or a software UI is sorted, you rarely need to bother with it again.
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jjj

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #53 on: October 22, 2015, 10:00:29 am »

As someone who builds software (ok, web developer, but with as technical as the back-end work is, they are full fledge software pieces) all I can say is NO. Bad idea. Building an API to access the core abilities of the device (ala smartphones) is not a bad idea, but allowing users to alter that core software is a horrible idea.

So, the core software package should be locked down, but allowing people to build new UIs/apps and load them is a great idea. Didn't Sony allow you to create apps for some of their cameras? And I know there have been a few Android powered cameras on the market.
I hope you can parse code better than you can a simple paragraph in response to camera interfaces. I was talking about the design/UI, not altering the core software or underlying code.
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SZRitter

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2015, 10:14:09 am »

I hope you can parse code better than you can a simple paragraph in response to camera interfaces. I was talking about the design/UI, not altering the core software or underlying code.

Your assumption is that those are two separate pieces, my assumption is that they are not. I would wager a bet, that it is 50/50 at best on the amount of cameras where either assumption is correct.

P.S. Really, a personal attack on me when all I said was an idea was bad...
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Alan Klein

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #55 on: October 22, 2015, 11:22:29 am »

It would be interesting to walk around with this thing and show it off.  I wouldn't mind that at all.  Take pictures too.  Looks like fun. 

jjj

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #56 on: October 22, 2015, 12:10:46 pm »

Your assumption is that those are two separate pieces, my assumption is that they are not. I would wager a bet, that it is 50/50 at best on the amount of cameras where either assumption is correct.
Firstly coding where the UI and the functionality of software are linked code wise is not smart design. Secondly offering customization of interface is done by many people with no affect on how a programme works.

Quote
P.S. Really, a personal attack on me when all I said was an idea was bad...
So you can [inaccurately] claim my suggestion to be a very bad thing despite it having been done for decades, but I can't say you misread posts.  Nice double standard.
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SZRitter

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #57 on: October 22, 2015, 12:40:57 pm »

Firstly coding where the UI and the functionality of software are linked code wise is not smart design. Secondly offering customization of interface is done by many people with no affect on how a programme works.
So you can [inaccurately] claim my suggestion to be a very bad thing despite it having been done for decades, but I can't say you misread posts.  Nice double standard.

You could, hypothetically, create an SDK/compiler (which is what they all probably are working with anyways) or similar to allow completely customized software, but that would need to come with an "at your own risk" philosophy. From a customer service standpoint, allowing consumers to alter things like this at the core level, is a nightmare that can easily be avoided. Probably the reason you haven't seen more SDKs out there. This is essentially the firmware level, and has potential to do lots of harm in the wrong hands as you are working directly at the hardware/software interface level.

But, the better way is to have a middle tier software in there that can handle all of it while keeping core functionality protected and hidden. That way loading a bad UI/app won't do harm to the device and it's software/hardware interface. This leads to increased bloat in your software, requiring a higher hardware cost. This is more an option now (look how much power is in an iPhone) than it was 10 years ago, and may even be how more companies are doing it.

As for the double standard, a dig at my coding skills with a personal attack is not the same as pointing out a weakness in my argument. You could point out that I misunderstood your post with out making it a personal attack.
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JeanMichel

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #58 on: October 22, 2015, 01:07:31 pm »

I posted the same comment on the Camera, lenses forum.

A Leica SL is not likely to be in my future – I am happy enough my my M9, which is getting a free replacement sensor, and my Canon 5D2. Still, I am interested in what that camera may be and, who knows,  be in my future after all. I am looking forward to Michael's review of the camera when he gets hold of one. In the meantime, a review by Jono Slack, who has used a pre-production camera, can be found at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-test-jono/  No speculations, only a report on real use photography.
Jean-Michel
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image66

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Re: Leica SL
« Reply #59 on: October 23, 2015, 12:51:59 am »

I find it quite entertaining seeing so many of you criticizing the price. The same people who spent even more on Canon 1Ds cameras.
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