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Author Topic: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?  (Read 45061 times)

BJL

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #100 on: October 22, 2015, 11:16:22 am »

Exactly. Besides, many people find the a7rII to be too small for proper operation (especially with gloves), especially when combined with larger/brighter lenses. Sony defined a strategy for their imaging division a few years back by looking at their core competences and strengths. They reached the conclusion that they were best at miniaturizing devices and applied this as is to cameras according to the "let's make the smallest possible camera with each sensor size" moto. This works wonders with the RX100 series, which delivers 5DMKIII level DR at base ISO in a pocketable camera.

But when you start to look at FF, one basically non compressible factor is lens size. We are given the impression of smaller size thanks to f4 zoom lenses, but lenses are in the end pretty much the same size at equal specs. The new Leica 24-90 is indeed a perfect example since it manages the feat to be heavier than the new Nikon 24-70 f2.8 VR (described by many in these very parts as a "monster lens belonging to a long gone era" when announced a few months ago)... while being one stop less bright on the long end. And this part is obviously essential for many applications.

Bernard,

    Though I agree that the advantages of "EVF cameras" over SLRs are less in larger formats (like 35mm) than in smaller ones (like 1" and 4/3", where your EVF camera and mine are) you are extrapolating too far from a couple of specific examples.  The surprising bulk of the Leica 24-90/2.8-4 is not a universal feature of lenses for EVF-cameras, and I suspect that its follows from a "no compromise on quality" approach, from a company that is traditionally skeptical of the optical quality of zoom lenses at all.  And the Sony combination of pointlessly small bodies with often chunky zoom lenses has always struck me as bizarre, because as you indicate, at focal lengths longer than about normal, it is lens size rather than body size that is the main constraint on compactness, and the body might as well be big enough to offer a solid hand-grip and easily operated controls.

For some examples of better design choices, note that MFT has both some lenses that are smaller than SLR counterparts, intended to be paired with bodies also smaller and lighter than SLR bodies, and then the EM1 (and Panasonic GH models) for use with the brighter, bulkier MFT lenses, external accessories and so on. The EM1 has been criticized for its bulk, but for its intended use with the bulkier high-end MFT lenses, that deep hand-grip and abundant external controls look useful.

Your words quoted below give a fascinating example of how people can project their own priorities and tastes onto others, as if believing that "all right-thinking people agree": complaining about modest differences in how often one needs to swap batteries (coming down at worst to owning and carrying one or two more spare batteries), and then deprecating the widely-discussed advantages of EVFs (for manual focusing and accurate previews, far larger and more detailed previews when zoomed, etc.), cost (look at the cheapest models in each format size), quieter operation (and its un-mentioned partner, reduced vibration) with put-down wording like "non essential" and "if you like that" might reflect your priorities and tastes, but I suspect a great many other competent camera users differ.

Another factor is battery capacity. When factoring in the need to take 1,500 images over a period of 2-3 days without being able to charge . . .

So all in all, the main value of mirrorless cameras are lower cost for camera manufacturers . . . the EVF if you like that . . . more silent operation and a few more aspects, that are basically non essential to most photographic applications.

Make no mistake, I welcome these new mirrorless developments and think that Nikon/Canon should get on board soon, but I still fail to get the mirrorless over excitement.
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BJL

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high quality lenses do not all need to be super-fast these days
« Reply #101 on: October 22, 2015, 11:32:08 am »

Looking at the specs, the 24-90 is almost f4 at 50mm! That is ridiculous for a $5000 lens! You may as well shoot medium format for that size, spec and price.
Yes – despite some wishful thinking from a certain passionate Leica enthusiast around here, that is usually the way it goes with variable minimum f-stop lenses: an f/2.8-4 typically offers some brightness advantage over a constant f/4, with little increase in bulk or cost, but the gain is mostly near the short end.

This is not a professional spec 35mm system lens, it's an oversized, over priced, slow as hell, amateur spec lens.
Are you sating that f/2.8 or close is an essential requirement for professional quality lens?  (So Canon's f/4 L zooms are frauds?)  Frankly, that sounds like an anachronistic attitude, a left-over from the era of film that limited us to far lower ISO speeds before quality fell off badly, and so often forcing photographers to accept painfully shallow DOF to get decent image quality.  Sure, _some_ professional photography benefits from big apertures and the associated very low DOF, but I would guess that a large majority of high quality professional and amateur photography in 35mm format is done with lenses stopped down beyond f/4.

I agree that the surprising bulk of this zoom lens is a legitimate topic for concern: it is due to a very strict priority for IQ over size, or Leica not yet having much expertise in zoom lens design, or something else?
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Rob C

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #102 on: October 22, 2015, 11:57:00 am »

While true, for any critical focus you will disable the optical path and enable liveview. So what is better. A camera designed to run in this mode or an afterthought. Dark current contribution is minimal in a normal exposure. I see it while doing astrophotography. But then critical focus is more important.


Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C

Bo Dez

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Re: high quality lenses do not all need to be super-fast these days
« Reply #103 on: October 22, 2015, 12:03:52 pm »

Yes – despite some wishful thinking from a certain passionate Leica enthusiast around here, that is usually the way it goes with variable minimum f-stop lenses: an f/2.8-4 typically offers some brightness advantage over a constant f/4, with little increase in bulk or cost, but the gain is mostly near the short end.
Are you sating that f/2.8 or close is an essential requirement for professional quality lens?  (So Canon's f/4 L zooms are frauds?)  Frankly, that sounds like an anachronistic attitude, a left-over from the era of film that limited us to far lower ISO speeds before quality fell off badly, and so often forcing photographers to accept painfully shallow DOF to get decent image quality.  Sure, _some_ professional photography benefits from big apertures and the associated very low DOF, but I would guess that a large majority of high quality professional and amateur photography in 35mm format is done with lenses stopped down beyond f/4.

I agree that the surprising bulk of this zoom lens is a legitimate topic for concern: it is due to a very strict priority for IQ over size, or Leica not yet having much expertise in zoom lens design, or something else?

I don't think it's an anachronism at all. I would say the opposite is to suggest that a 2.8-4 lens is relevant in this day and age, in a professional build. It's about maximising potential, doing more with less, making it easier to shoot and get the pictures you need in less time, without having to be concerned about changing lighting and exposures if you simply change your lens zoom. if I want a lens like that I will just shoot medium format where the extra bulk and effort pays off with image quality. Canon's f4 zooms have their place, particularly the wider ones, but the difference is you have a choice with Canon and their 2.8 Lenses are very, very good, small and relatively cheap. A 24-70 , lets say standard zoom type of thing, needs to be 2.8, IMO, as does 70-200 ish. Or at very least, the option to have it as well (like Canon), and with this system it doesn't look like it will ever be the case. There are no fast lenses for this thing until end of next year when there may be one 50mm 1.4.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 12:17:21 pm by Bo Dez »
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Bo Dez

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2015, 12:13:01 pm »


Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C

Exactly! I have used a tripod once in 15 years. Only because it was a shoot that needed locked off shots for a very complex composite.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2015, 12:56:08 pm »


Why assume everybody wants to use a tripod? Especially with a camera meant to be 'convenient'...

Rob C
Well we were talking about maximum IQ. Mirror doesn't help. For handheld, there really is no contest in my mind. It is nigh on impossible to get accurate focus with a mirror. But worse you absolutely cannot see it in a modern DSLR even if you shim it just so. Electronic aid and on sensor af really is the way to go. But some prefer ovf and thats fine, we don't have to debate that.
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JeanMichel

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2015, 01:05:31 pm »

A Leica SL is not likely to be in my future – I am happy enough my my M9, which is getting a free replacement sensor, and my Canon 5D2. Still, I am interested in what that camera may be and, who knows,  be in my future after all. I am looking forward to Michael's review of the camera when he gets hold of one. In the meantime, a review by Jono Slack, who has used a pre-production camera, can be found at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2015/10/leica-sl-test-jono/  No speculations, only a report on real use photography.
Jean-Michel
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rainer_v

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2015, 01:32:08 pm »

I never understood the appeal of the digital M cameras, not of the S line and not of the SL. If i would have them in my bags, one more system which i wouldnt use. Although in film days i was in love with the M and the R, so its nothing against Leica in general, but their digitals just dont attract me , independent of their price tags.
Why to buy into the new leica line, i cant see it and even if 24mp might be nice for many things, i prefer higher pixel counts ... at least if the quality is so high than the sony/nikons are offering

The weight value of a small cam as the a7r is not to find together with clumpsy zooms, but with lenses as the voigtländers, leica m, or the small E lenses. Also together with the very nice canon 24-70/4 its still a package which is  much lighter than a d800 or similars.
.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 01:34:15 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2015, 01:56:45 pm »

Hi,

So you find the Canon 24-70/4 a good option on that A7rII? I am a bit interested in that lens!

Best regards
Erik

I never understood the appeal of the digital M cameras, not of the S line and not of the SL. If i would have them in my bags, one more system which i wouldnt use. Although in film days i was in love with the M and the R, so its nothing against Leica in general, but their digitals just dont attract me , independent of their price tags.
Why to buy into the new leica line, i cant see it and even if 24mp might be nice for many things, i prefer higher pixel counts ... at least if the quality is so high than the sony/nikons are offering

The weight value of a small cam as the a7r is not to find together with clumpsy zooms, but with lenses as the voigtländers, leica m, or the small E lenses. Also together with the very nice canon 24-70/4 its still a package which is  much lighter than a d800 or similars.
.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

rainer_v

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2015, 02:35:49 pm »

i compared carefull the sigma art 24-105 , the canon 24-105 is and two of the 24-70/4 for aerial shootings. Otherwise i use very rarely zooms. The canon 24-70 was by far the best of these lenses.
At f8 the 24-70/4 is very good and esp. very sharp till the edges over the whole range.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 02:37:52 pm by rainer_v »
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rainer viertlböck
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2015, 03:09:19 pm »

Clearly the approach that most have with this camera is totally different than Leica's aim... Leica never addressed this product at the mass market that would go out to select a system to use and sell 50000 cameras per month... Surely there will be some people that can afford it and use it in that manner, but only a few out of its customers... And maybe later on, Leica will use this same platform to address it to the consumer market... but this is clearly a PRO product that has been designed as to provide a cross-talk among the rest of Leica and Sinar products.

Clearly Leica has aimed for a platform that allows R users to use their lenses, M users to do the same, S users to have a back up camera and Sinar users to obtain a cheap MFDB with S lenses on their front standard and full interface comunication between front and rear standard and even integrate pro video in their work as well as turning Sinar view cameras into great proffessional videocameras.

It is a product that unites and enhances the abilities of already existing Leica users and especially the pro ones... Nothing more, nothing less. A proof of the above is that Leica is into no rush as to provide lenses for the consumer market as they know it would only be a small fraction of the possible sales. To the contradict, I believe that this camera will enhance sales of the Leica S and of Sinar products.
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pegelli

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2015, 03:39:57 pm »

Clearly the approach that most have with this camera is totally different than Leica's aim... Leica never addressed this product at the mass market that would go out to select a system to use and sell 50000 cameras per month... Surely there will be some people that can afford it and use it in that manner, but only a few out of its customers... And maybe later on, Leica will use this same platform to address it to the consumer market... but this is clearly a PRO product that has been designed as to provide a cross-talk among the rest of Leica and Sinar products.

Clearly Leica has aimed for a platform that allows R users to use their lenses, M users to do the same, S users to have a back up camera and Sinar users to obtain a cheap MFDB with S lenses on their front standard and full interface comunication between front and rear standard and even integrate pro video in their work as well as turning Sinar view cameras into great proffessional videocameras.

It is a product that unites and enhances the abilities of already existing Leica users and especially the pro ones... Nothing more, nothing less. A proof of the above is that Leica is into no rush as to provide lenses for the consumer market as they know it would only be a small fraction of the possible sales. To the contradict, I believe that this camera will enhance sales of the Leica S and of Sinar products.
Theo, I don't know if this description of Leica's intentions you paint is true or not (only time will tell) but if we assume it is how would you then answer the question you put in the title of the thread?
My assessment would be no, in your scenario it's not a direct competitor but a similar product that is aimed at a different market (or different type of use).
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 03:42:50 pm by pegelli »
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pieter, aka pegelli

Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2015, 03:53:31 pm »

Theo, I don't know if this description of Leica's intentions you paint is true or not (only time will tell) but if we assume it is how would you then answer the question you put in the title of the thread? My assessment would be no, it's not a direct competitor but a similar product that is aimed at a different market.
The O/P title was before the camera was announced... I was expecting a FF mirrorless with T mount ( that it is) and that it would be something like the a Q with interchangeable lens and thus a Sony alternative (that would surely be cheaper than the Q since there would be no lens)... But... look at that!

 I also believe that the camera will be a major success among Hollywood professionals and the rest of major cinema studios around the world... People keep forgetting that Leica promotes this as a PRO platform (they have it in their major promotion logo in capitals)... not a Sony or Nikon or Canon alternative... and even if all the makers have cameras addressed to a pro task... Leica's idea of a pro is all kinds of tasks, whether if its Magnum, or Studio, or fashion, or product, or architecture, or cinema, or art...
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rainer_v

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2015, 04:53:06 pm »

i'd say i need my cams for "pro uses" as you say... and exactly therefor i cant see what the hell i would do with this leica.
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rainer viertlböck
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #114 on: October 22, 2015, 05:12:00 pm »

i'd say i need my cams for "pro uses" as you say... and exactly therefor i cant see what the hell i would do with this leica.

Simple... you won't buy it! ...there others that will!  ;)
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deanwork

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #115 on: October 22, 2015, 06:05:14 pm »

At 16 grand for the body with a chip that will be obsolete in a couple of years, if not now, the only thing that is PRO is the marketing people trying to keep Leica alive.





Simple... you won't buy it! ...there others that will!  ;)
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pegelli

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #116 on: October 22, 2015, 06:13:26 pm »

The O/P title was before the camera was announced... I was expecting a FF mirrorless with T mount ( that it is) and that it would be something like the a Q with interchangeable lens and thus a Sony alternative (that would surely be cheaper than the Q since there would be no lens)... But... look at that!
A simple yes or no would suffice to answer my question, but reading between the lines I read a no.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #117 on: October 22, 2015, 06:19:26 pm »

At 16 grand for the body with a chip that will be obsolete in a couple of years, if not now, the only thing that is PRO is the marketing people trying to keep Leica alive.

One may say that for everything... P1 backs, Credo backs, Hassy cameras... whatever... I still see pros using their S & S2 though with amazing results and I do find my Sinarback 54H & my Hasselblad CF-39MS multishot backs anything but obsolete (unless if you can beat them in their quality or know equipment that does...  :o )... Neither I find my Contax 645 system obsolete (in fact the prices are off the roof with it) or my Fuji GX680 system... Obsolete is as obsolete does... see?
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Theodoros

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #118 on: October 22, 2015, 06:23:23 pm »

A simple yes or no would suffice to answer my question, but reading between the lines I read a no.

You read correct... I started the thread expecting a "yes" and it turned out to be a "no"...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Leica to relase a Sony A7 direct competitor?
« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2015, 08:08:32 pm »

For some examples of better design choices, note that MFT has both some lenses that are smaller than SLR counterparts, intended to be paired with bodies also smaller and lighter than SLR bodies, and then the EM1 (and Panasonic GH models) for use with the brighter, bulkier MFT lenses, external accessories and so on. The EM1 has been criticized for its bulk, but for its intended use with the bulkier high-end MFT lenses, that deep hand-grip and abundant external controls look useful.

Agreed, but the sensors are twice smaller and the mount too.

Your words quoted below give a fascinating example of how people can project their own priorities and tastes onto others, as if believing that "all right-thinking people agree": complaining about modest differences in how often one needs to swap batteries (coming down at worst to owning and carrying one or two more spare batteries), and then deprecating the widely-discussed advantages of EVFs (for manual focusing and accurate previews, far larger and more detailed previews when zoomed, etc.), cost (look at the cheapest models in each format size), quieter operation (and its un-mentioned partner, reduced vibration) with put-down wording like "non essential" and "if you like that" might reflect your priorities and tastes, but I suspect a great many other competent camera users differ.

You may have read a bit too much in what I wrote. ;) My comments are of course derived from my needs, but I believe that they are a bit more generic than what you seem to think. I have of course never said or thought for a second that they apply to all, why would I want to discourage EVF usera happy about the tool their use? I am fully aware that compactness is key for some operations and that an EVF is by far the best solution in some shooting situations (low light,...).

On your comments:
- Although I didn't go through the list in details again, I clearly acknowledged that there were some advantages to EVFs (accurate manual focus is one of them, although I am not sold yet on the Sony implementation that seems to force you to lose track of the whole composition when you zoom to 100%, low light,...), and some, IMHO still important, downsides (contrast, battery drain, lack of resolution, "disconnection" from the reality of the scene, loss of shooting pleasure,...),
- My comment about batteries was not at all about the time it takes to change batteries, it was about the total weight of the system for those who need to take more than 1,000 (I wrote 1,500 above, still true at 1,000) images in a given session without having the opportunity to recharge. I mentioned my applications, but there are many others (sports, weddings,...) for which taking 1,000 images in a session without being able to charge is common. 1,000 images at 5 images per second represents... less than 4 minutes of continuous shooting. This was meant as another example of the main point, being that there are downsides to small size/low weight other than ergonomics, it isn't the magic bullet some claim it is,
- There are cheaper mirrorless cameras, but there are even cheaper DSLRs. Overall would you not agree that mirrorless are currently more expensive than their closest DSLR equivalent? The cost to produce them is clearly cheaper (less mechanical parts, faster assembly, less calibration, less recalls,...), yet they sell at at a higher price. Just facts. What it means is more margin for camera manufacturers, which is probably the main reason why Olympus is still in the camera business btw. I am not complaining at all, I find it good for them that they are able to sell on perceived value and not on cost. But it means that I won't spend that amount of cash for a a7rII although I think it would be nice to own one for some shooting situations. It is too expensive for the marginal value I would gain,
- The non essential comment was about other minor items that had not been listed (I realize that the way I built my sentence was confusing), it was not meant against EVFs.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 22, 2015, 08:28:25 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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