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Author Topic: Grand Canyon Daytime  (Read 15776 times)

Isaac

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2015, 11:42:42 am »

Um... the girl is out of focus. The sky is blotchy with compression artifacts.

Thought you'd want to know.

Um… a screenshot from a TV soap commercial.

Thought that wouldn't need to be explained. Enjoy the colours.
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daws

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2015, 06:13:28 pm »

Um… a screenshot from a TV soap commercial.

Thought that wouldn't need to be explained.


I love the <WHOOSH> of satire as it passes over a guy's head so close it gives him a buzzcut.
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Isaac

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2015, 12:44:48 pm »

I love the <WHOOSH> of satire as it passes over a guy's head so close it gives him a buzzcut.

As long as you think you said something clever, we're all happy for you.
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Peter_DL

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2015, 06:34:12 pm »

Apparently Alain Briot is also convinced that only close to sunrise and sunset are the photographs "beautiful". So he fakes it.

So what exactly makes it a fake for you ?
considering the massive image manipulation which is almost always needed on the way from a flat raw state (scene-referred rendition) to an output-referred pleasing image. Where precisely shall we draw the border line between fake / non-fake ?
 
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stamper

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2015, 04:22:10 am »

So what exactly makes it a fake for you ?
considering the massive image manipulation which is almost always needed on the way from a flat raw state (scene-referred rendition) to an output-referred pleasing image. Where precisely shall we draw the border line between fake / non-fake ?
 

Agreed!

AreBee

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2015, 05:24:53 am »

stamper,

Quote
Agreed!

Where precisely shall we draw the border line between fake/non-fake?
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AreBee

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2015, 01:16:50 pm »

Peter,

Quote
So what exactly makes it a fake...?

That Alain faked sunrise/sunset colour is not open to debate - this should be obvious from the title alone of the article:

Quote from: Alain Briot
How this photograph was made: Grand Canyon Daytime or how to get sunrise / sunset colors in daytime photographs



dreed,

Quote
On average, there are 12 hours of daylight per day yet photographers seems to have convinced themselves that only close to sunrise and sunset is it an appropriate time of day to take photographs that are "beautiful."

From The Best Light:

What quality of light is for each of us depends on what we want to photograph and what we are looking for. However, traditionally, and when photographing large vistas or the grand landscape, the best light is found at sunrise and at sunset.

Credit: Alain Briot
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Peter_DL

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2015, 08:13:23 pm »

Peter,

That Alain faked sunrise/sunset colour is not open to debate - this should be obvious from the title alone of the article:

Well Rob, - should Alain have told us that he was emotionally in sunset mode when taking the photo, so that the final image represents his true perceptioin, and how he saw the scene ? ... something like this, which seems to have become a kind of standard justification, heard too often, whenever an image is accused of looking over-processed or over-saturated.

Seems Alain first and foremost violated the political correct language.
Also, the specific editing approach may have prevented a really good "fake" :)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 08:16:55 pm by Peter_DL »
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stamper

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2015, 04:53:02 am »

All photography is fakery. Three photographers standing besides each other with the same type of camera and lens shooting a landscape press the shutter at the same time. When the final out put is viewed the images from the the three photographers will have different renderings despite the compositions despite being similar. Each photographer will have chosen different settings in the camera. Which of the three images are "real"?

AreBee

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2015, 02:27:38 pm »

Peter,

Quote
...this...seems to have become a kind of standard justification, heard too often, whenever an image is accused of looking over-processed or over-saturated.

Don't confuse the statement of fact in my previous post with a critique of Alain's photo, the latter of which I have not made public, nor will I.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2015, 02:37:24 pm »

The sky seems more blue than it should be at sunset compared to how the land is orange.  Maybe it's just me because I knew it was edited. 

amolitor

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2015, 06:40:02 pm »

The whole 'well, all of photography is artifice and where shall we draw the line anyways? ' argument is entirely facetious.

On the one hand it is factually correct and sometimes interesting. But this is simply cover for its facetiousness.

In this context we're clearly talking about whether something 'looks real' in a general photographic sense. Would most people generally agree that it's a pretty accurate photo, or would most people say that it's not? This isn't a surgically precise line. But it's a workable and useful one. And mostly it is the line under discussion, pretending that it does not exist is an obvious attempt at distraction and misdirection.
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amolitor

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2015, 10:39:41 am »

Light at the two ends of the day has more or less two interesting properties.

The first is the low angle which frequently provides photographically useful modeling. As Alan points out, in this case it produces photographically useless modeling.

The second one is color.
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Isaac

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2015, 12:11:26 pm »

So what exactly makes it a fake for you ?

fwiw Rob B. seems to have understood my comment correctly.


people who don't have the luxury of getting up at 5am or getting home at 10pm

How sad that the hours between sunrise and sunset hold no interest.
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Peter_DL

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2015, 12:57:12 pm »

In this context we're clearly talking about whether something 'looks real' in a general photographic sense. Would most people generally agree that it's a pretty accurate photo, or would most people say that it's not? This isn't a surgically precise line. But it's a workable and useful one.

And ?
Shall we call every image a fake which does not meet this criterion i.e. which deviates from 'perceptually realistic' ?
Or, what if Alain had been successful to emulate sunset colors. Not a fake anymore ?

My question was about the definition and usage of the term "fake" here, and what triggers (justifies) it.  I think we agree that it is nothing technical.

So far the only suggest differentiator was the title of the article, and maybe in general the title and text surrounding an image. Not convincing – imo.

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AreBee

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2015, 01:11:36 pm »

dreed,

Quote
Traditional photography was done using cameras that didn't have digital sensors and required making physical prints in order to see the result of the shot.

In my mind's eye, I visualize how a particular...sight and feeling will appear on a print. If it excites me, there is a good chance it will make a good photograph. It is an intuitive sense, an ability that comes from a lot of practice.

Credit: Ansel Adams

Quote
How many tour groups spend sunrise or sunset at a location for tourists to photograph?

To whom does the decision to join a tour group belong?

Quote
Articles like this give people who don't have the luxury of getting up at 5am or getting home at 10pm ideas on how to improve the look of their images and since they have the tools, why shouldn't they be empowered to do so with a few tips?

What others do is a matter for them.
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John Camp

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2015, 02:01:49 pm »

Much of this discussion involves arguments that are quite common in journalism. There is no way to get "objective" reports from journalists except in the simplest contexts. "Joe Blow is dead" could be considered an objective statement if Joe Blow is in fact dead, but "Joe Blow is dead after a varied and active life" has now strayed from objectivity. This is all rudimentary, high-school-journalism-class stuff. What many, perhaps most, journalists agree upon is that they should strive to make reports as objective as possible, and "fair" as possible, while recognizing that true, theoretical objectivity and fairness is not possible. But you should strive for it, and striving for it usually produces superior reports.

What Alain has done, and what so many people here object to (I believe) is that Alain no longer strives for objectivity or fairness. (And he's not required to.) He apparently strives for sales. This is equivalent to the shows you see on MSNBC (left) and Fox News (right) which are called "journalism" but which take raw information and then re-work it to conform with a previously determined point of view, which the networks apparently hope will draw in viewers who find that viewpoint congenial. Alain's photographs apparently strive to present a commonly accepted, middle-brow version of "beauty" that is marketable, and has little to do with any concept of objectivity or fairness. Other versions of "beauty" may not be as marketable.

But images are just images, and images themselves never lie, because pigment on paper can't talk. The images simply are. The only "right" or "wrong" in all of this is how the images are represented by the people who make them. If Alain calls them "sunset photos of the Grand Canyon" then he's committing an intellectual fraud. If he simply calls them "photos of the Grand Canyon," which they are, then he's not. Not informing a buyer that the colors have been strenuously manipulated would be problematic. If the buyer asks about the colors, then it clearly would be dishonest if you did not say that they had been manipulated.

What about the buyer who walks into a gallery, ooo's and ahh's over a photo, but never asks about details before buying? Well, that would be up to the photographer, but I'd feel a little dishonest if I didn't mention that the photo had been worked -- but that gets into a whole lot of complicated and individual concepts concerning honesty.

All of this is complicated by problems of competence. What do you think about a reporter (or photographer) who strives for objectivity and fairness but is simply incompetent? What about cases when a photograph is heavily manipulated, but really does, in fact, make it more conform to reality (I'm thinking of such things as creating true verticals in a photo, when the raw image shows lens distortions.) I'm running OS X Yosemite, and one of the screen saver options is a photograph of the moon, in the background, with a slice of earth and its atmosphere in the foreground. When that screen-saver came up the other day, I noticed that the moon was not round (the moon is actually an oblate spheroid, and is not truly round, but the variance is so small you can't see it.) I actually measured the variation on the screen, and it's there -- the moon image is wider horizontally than vertically. But where does this variation come in? Is it in the way the pixels are arranged in the monitor, or in the original photo, or was the image stretched to fill the aspect ratio of the iMac? Was it inadvertent, or deliberate, or part of a mechanism? I just don't know. But the image is nice, and I had no trouble recognizing the moon...
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Telecaster

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2015, 04:30:09 pm »

Just to throw something else into the discussion, I've attached two versions of the same photo taken in Grand Canyon Nat. Park in March 2014. The camera was an Olympus E-M1 and the lens was an Oly 75mm. I took the photo during evening "golden light." The first version shows the result of using a standard "daylight" color balance value while in the second I've adjusted the balance to create a look more to my liking. From experience with various color transparency films I might expect to get a warm & saturated look using a daylight balance setting, but that's clearly not the case here. The E-M1's sensor responds to light differently, particularly—in my experience—at higher elevations. Looks to me like there's a greater than typical sensitivity to UV light in play. I noticed this across the board in my pics from this trip…and processed accordingly.

Here's my broader point: processing is processing. I'm all in favor of disclosing it, especially when deception for commercial or polemical reasons could be an issue. Beyond that…have at it. Adhere to whatever standard of "realism" you choose. Go for as lush or as austere a look as you like.

-Dave-
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Grand Canyon Daytime
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2015, 02:25:17 pm »

... people who don't have the luxury of getting up at 5am ...

Luxury?

Jeremy
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Isaac

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Re: Brilliant Clean
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2015, 04:42:02 pm »

Where precisely shall we draw the border line between fake / non-fake ?

What is it that makes manipulate a more palatable term for you?

Quote
manipulate -- "to ​control something or someone to ​your ​advantage, often unfairly or dishonestly"

Is it that "manipulate" has another meaning, so the speaker can equivocate in a way that "fake" does not allow.



« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 12:29:36 pm by Isaac »
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