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Author Topic: Nikon's Future  (Read 11838 times)

rogan

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Nikon's Future
« on: October 14, 2015, 07:47:07 pm »

So let's talk about Nikon's future(said by a Nikon user)
Do you really think know that Sony has attempted to get in the Pro game they will keep selling Nikon their best Sensors? Would you if you were Sony? (Play along, anyone who has used the recent Sony's know they aren't a  "pro" camera but are very good and at least it has some new innovative features)
Name a Nikon feature in the past 5 years that was a game changer?
Name a Nikon lens in the past 5 years that was a game changer or even better than a third party option?
It seems like they(and Canon) have been treading water.
The D800-810 are amazing camera's. But Nikon need a mirrorless to supplement the system bad. And with them losing more and more money every year how much is going into pro R&D? Are they ripe to be bought? Sony?(would instantly round out their lens system) Samsung? Instantly a player in the camera game with unlimited cash for R&D and sensor making capabilities?
I know I won't invest another dime in Nikon until they release a pro mirrorless.
I have bought the Sony and the files and lenses are great but the cameras are so annoying to use. I would kill for Canon or Nikon to make one so it handles right, had usable buttons and a menu that made sense.

All above minus the sensor issue also applies to Canon as well.

Please note, I couldn't care less about camera companies. I have zero loyality. I use what works.
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RobertJ

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2015, 09:12:05 pm »

Same here, I have zero loyalties.  I will mix and match cameras and lenses if I have to.  With Sony E mount, that's what a lot of people are doing anyway!

I don't believe Sony will ever stop selling sensors to other camera makers.  That's a huge business for them, now even in the Medium Format market! 

I feel that Canon has been making great updated lenses with the 35 1.4 II and the 11-24, and their Tilt-Shift lenses.  I'm a fan of the 5DsR in terms of the way the detail is rendered, and the grain structure.  Highlights can be recovered better than most people think, but bring up the shadows and you have more noise than Sony/Nikon.

The RAW files from the A7RII that I've played with are fantastic.  Haven't used the camera.

Nikon is capable of making great lenses.  The 400mm f/2.8E FL ED VR currently ranks number 2 in the world! (below the 85 Otus). 

Also, I don't like this idea that Mirrorless should be a small camera body.  Why?  Nikon and Canon should release the same Pro bodies that we're used to using, but without the mirror!
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rogan

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2015, 09:46:24 pm »


Also, I don't like this idea that Mirrorless should be a small camera body.  Why?  Nikon and Canon should release the same Pro bodies that we're used to using, but without the mirror!

Never considered that but interesting. I do think the new Sony is slightly too small. Maybe the same size as the d810 wouldn't be a bad idea.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2015, 09:52:07 pm by rogan »
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2015, 09:46:28 pm »

Sony sold off their chip division into it's own company, so I don't think Nikon will have trouble with chips.

Paul
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2015, 11:38:00 pm »

A few elements:
- As far as I know, Nikon isn't loosing money, they are profitable,
- Many of their recent lenses focus on look more than on technical perfection (they are still very good technically though), and they are doing a very good job there,
- The best 35mm lenses (Otus, super teles,...) are only available natively on Nikon and Canon,
- Till now their bodies must have generated a majority of Sony's sensors sales in numbers, and probably even more in revenue, I doubt that Sony would want to do without these revenues,
- So far they have managed to extract better image quality from the Sony chips than Sony themselves,
- The ecosystem remains superior for Nikon/Canon, think about Profoto's TTL to cite just one example relevant to my needs,
- They have all the technical bricks to do mirrorless any time they deem relevant (Nikon 1 series remains the fastest focusing mirrorless camera).

Whatever the hype, I personally still find EVF to offer a significantly worse shooting experience that OVF, I don't think I am alone in that. That must somehow influence Nikon's strategy.

So yes, Sony has been playing very well and they have a bright future ahead of them, but I don't see Nikon and Canon going out of business. They still have strong assets and, besides for compactness, still offer the best photographic tools.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2015, 12:09:56 am »

Hi,

Sony "spins off" the sensor production so it will be an independent business entity. It will of course sell sensors to anyone willing to buy.

Best regards
Erik

A few elements:
- As far as I know, Nikon isn't loosing money, they are profitable,
- Many of their recent lenses focus on look more than on technical perfection (they are still very good technically though), and they are doing a very good job there,
- The best 35mm lenses (Otus, super teles,...) are only available natively on Nikon and Canon,
- Till now their bodies must have generated a majority of Sony's sensors sales in numbers, and probably even more in revenue, I doubt that Sony would want to do without these revenues,
- So far they have managed to extract better image quality from the Sony chips than Sony themselves,
- The ecosystem remains superior for Nikon/Canon, think about Profoto's TTL to cite just one example relevant to my needs,
- They have all the technical bricks to do mirrorless any time they deem relevant (Nikon 1 series remains the fastest focusing mirrorless camera).

Whatever the hype, I personally still find EVF to offer a significantly worse shooting experience that OVF, I don't think I am alone in that. That must somehow influence Nikon's strategy.

So yes, Sony has been playing very well and they have a bright future ahead of them, but I don't see Nikon and Canon going out of business. They still have strong assets and, besides for compactness, still offer the best photographic tools.

Cheers,
Bernard
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rogan

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2015, 12:15:00 am »

A few elements:
- As far as I know, Nikon isn't loosing money, they are profitable,
- Many of their recent lenses focus on look more than on technical perfection (they are still very good technically though), and they are doing a very good job there,
- The best 35mm lenses (Otus, super teles,...) are only available natively on Nikon and Canon,
- Till now their bodies must have generated a majority of Sony's sensors sales in numbers, and probably even more in revenue, I doubt that Sony would want to do without these revenues,
- So far they have managed to extract better image quality from the Sony chips than Sony themselves,
- The ecosystem remains superior for Nikon/Canon, think about Profoto's TTL to cite just one example relevant to my needs,
- They have all the technical bricks to do mirrorless any time they deem relevant (Nikon 1 series remains the fastest focusing mirrorless camera).

Whatever the hype, I personally still find EVF to offer a significantly worse shooting experience that OVF, I don't think I am alone in that. That must somehow influence Nikon's strategy.

So yes, Sony has been playing very well and they have a bright future ahead of them, but I don't see Nikon and Canon going out of business. They still have strong assets and, besides for compactness, still offer the best photographic tools.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
 "As of today I agree with you. Nikon may now be profitable but for how much longer? Sales are going down every year. Sooner or later something has to give.

Many of their recent lenses focus on look more than on technical perfection (they are still very good technically though), and they are doing a very good job there," Please tell me you are thinking of something other than the joke of a 58mm.

"The ecosystem remains superior for Nikon/Canon, think about Profoto's TTL to cite just one example relevant to my needs"
This is something profoto has to fix not sony or nikon. All they need to release is a Sony air remote.

- The best 35mm lenses (Otus, super teles,...) are only available natively on Nikon and Canon,
Actually Sony/zeiss seem to be holding their own. Super teles, no but how many actually use longer than 300mm? 5-10 percent. and there is no reason mirrorless couldn't use them just as well in the future.


With mp getting higher the biggest problem is af accuracy. Focussing thru all of dslr's glass and plastic as well as a flopping mirror leaves so much room for error. For someone who shoots like you not a huge deal but someone like me who is rarely below 2.8 on moving people this is huge. As well af tune is terrible to deal with and doesn't work well on zooms. Canon and Nikon have to wake up and add mirrorless to their system. It could work with all current lenses via an adapter. I am NOT saying they should discontinue anything but add to their lineup.

Nikon and Canon are so worried about keeping their systems closed. Sony has had to take a new way of looking at things and so far it has worked. Are they way ahead, no. But in two years they are right there. I just really want to see something new and exciting out of Nikon.
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synn

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2015, 12:29:52 am »

Nikon is a strong company and will certainly have a future, but I don't see a future for Nikon with me. And I say that as a long term Nikon user and former fanboi who has convinced many folks to get into the gold ringed ecosystem in the past.

The reasons are manyfold. To start with, ever since I have added a medium format kit to my arsenal, I rarely use the D800 for the highest quality work. There are many here who can fill an encyclopedia with numbers and charts to argue how the Nikon is actually better, but for my use, it doesn't compare. Not even close.

I have been "tolerating" Nikon color for a while now. My first DSLR was a D70s, which had a beautiful Pop to its colors. That was somehow lost in the D90, D300s and D800 I have used since then. I was so resigned to getting dead, unimpressive colors out of the camera and spending time in post fixing them up that I stopped caring about it. That was until I got myself a Fuji x e1. After setting up my own profiles for it, I see beautiful color from its files which would take a lot more work on the Nikons to match. I got the MF system primarily for its color rendering and now I have a supporting system that has similar priorities. The Nikon system sadly, is at the back of the line.

The whole internet and their grandma are waxing lyrical about the Sony CMOS sensors, so let me be the trend breaker and say, I am not a fan of the "Sony look" anymore. It is too clinical, too plasticky, too perfect for me. Same goes for my Nikkors. Fine texture just does not render the way I want it to be. Again, I see the MF kit and the Fuji (which might have that Sony sensor, but their own CFA makes the difference) doing it better, more naturally. I was thunderstruck by the 36MP claim of the D800 and loved it until I started working with MF. Lots of pixels is great, but lots of pixels used correctly is a different matter altogether. Again with the Fuji, I see 16, very high quality pixels in the files. Still not enough to make big prints like I do with the Nikon, but some day soon they will have a higher MP x-trans sensor and i will be waiting.

But most importantly for me, the difference in shooting experience is what matters. I love the shooting experience of the MF kit. It is very different from anything else and I have no problem carrying all that up any remote location, as I know exactly what I want to shoot with it. The Nikon kit, I used to find a chore to carry around. I still did it because there are many things an MF camera is not ideal for or is too much camera, but I found myself enjoying it less and less. It's too bulky to be used as a versatile solution and what it is supposed to do best (high quality, planned shots), my MF kit is better suited for.

It finally came to the point where I was just shooting pictures so that I can console myself that I shot something. That was when I decided to get myself the Fuji. It was a gamble for not so much money, but boy, it paid off. We went hiking for fall images the other day and for the first time in a long time, I found myself enjoying moving around with a smaller format camera and shooting. I loved how there are real dials for every setting rather than button presses and control wheels. It was something akin to what I used to feel when I used to walk around with my first proper camera, a Vivitar SLR with a lowly 28-70 lens.

I have all but decided that when Fuji comes up with a higher MP XE body, I will get rid of all the Nikon get and move all in into Fuji as my smaller system. Two bodies and 4 lenses can still be fitted into a side bag and I will actually enjoy using them.

There are lots of people out there for whom the Nikon offerings work great. Neither smaller formats, nor MF will satisfy their needs. I am not one of them. Not anymore
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2015, 02:56:46 am »

Many of their recent lenses focus on look more than on technical perfection (they are still very good technically though), and they are doing a very good job there," Please tell me you are thinking of something other than the joke of a 58mm.

I definitely think that the 58mm f1.4 is part of that trend (I don't own a copy but have seen many outstanding images shot with it), but it is only just one example. The whole f1.4 line up is focused on look.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 05:53:52 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Jimbo57

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2015, 04:45:14 am »

I think that Nikon missed a trick with the Df.

If that at been a mirrorless FX format in a body the size of an FM2n, it would have provided the "retro" look they were after in a really attractive specification.

I love my D810 and D800E cameras but would have liked them to be slightly more compact and without the disadvantages of an archaic mirror/pentaprism mechanism.
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JohnBrew

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2015, 07:20:38 am »

Nikon and Canon should release the same Pro bodies that we're used to using, but without the mirror!

Amen!

Synn, I agree with you on MF, but have you tried MF with one of the Sony sensors? I have and I want one. But then I wouldn't use my 810 and I'm not sure it's worth it to get rid of all my Nikon gear. BTW, the Otus will hang right in there with MF Rodenstock lenses. But to touch on one more item before I close - Nikon color. Yuck! I don't know how Nikon did it, but going from the 800 to the 810 something got lost in translation as the colors take a lot of work in PP to get right. With the 800 I created a profile with the ColorChecker and it worked well, while a created profile for the 810 didn't (work well). Actually I wish they would have stayed with D700 color profiles.
I don't believe Nikon is sitting on their thumbs, but it would be nice to hear of something good coming in the pipeline.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2015, 07:36:39 am by JohnBrew »
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MarkL

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2015, 08:20:54 am »

I thought (the D800 sensor at least) Sony made sensors to Nikon's design? I like my D800E but I'm growing more and more sure this will be my last Nikon camera:

The level of innovation is so poor other than the latest Sony sensor, there is no compelling reason to upgrade and the DSLR as a whole is very limited and an evolutionary dead-end.

I now only own one Nikon lens (70-200) because of their huge price hikes, gaps in their lenses line (or very dated lenses) and their fast primes are started to be consistently outperformed by cheaper, better made third party lenses (Sigma/Tamron).

I sold all my Nikon flashes because they were so far behind modern third party alternatives (lithium powered V860) selling for a fraction of the price.

I've been badly treated by Nikon service and claiming 'impact damage' on every service request is getting ridiculous.

Huge quality failures on almost every major release, then releasing 'fixed' versions (D610, D810, SB910) so the used value get hammered.
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Paul2660

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2015, 09:01:51 am »

I can agree on the service aspect, as my latest episode with Nikon Service was less than stellar.  If you are not NPS, then service with Nikon is a bit of a crap shoot.  But what really amazed me was how the D810 was sent back to me as I am sure if I had sent it in to Nikon Service that they would have claimed "damaged in shipment".  And Nikon's service tech/line is a bit hard to work with also.  As each person I called gave me me a different story on the repair.  End result, Nikon did fix the camera, and I got it back. 

Color:

I also love the colors from the Fuji X trans sensors, and still hope to see Adobe get closer to a solution for the finer details in LR or ACR.  I still prefer the look of the Fuji from LR over C1.  And if Fuji does make a 24MP (Please) sensor things will get interesting indeed.  I also like the files from the Olympus and it's ability to create the 40Mp high detailed files, but just don't want to make that investment right now, maybe Fuji will follow along this line of technical improvements.

With Nikon, I find I don't have a lot of trouble with the D810, and do prefer it's color over the D800 series of cameras.  Again, LR to me has more options, with their list of available profiles.  I realize that it's an individual type call.   I tried the A7rII, but ended up sending it back as I just did not see that much improvement over what I was getting from the D810, in the lower iso ranges.  And as a Nikon shooter, the A7rII, just becomes a manual focus camera 100% of the time unless you are willing to invest in a lot of A mount glass, or Canon glass.  If an adapter is made (that is quality and won't damage a lens like Metabones can do) that allows AF on Nikon glass with Sony, then I would reconsider for sure. 

Paul
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2015, 11:15:51 am »

I now only own one Nikon lens (70-200) because of their huge price hikes, gaps in their lenses line (or very dated lenses) and their fast primes are started to be consistently outperformed by cheaper, better made third party lenses (Sigma/Tamron).

This is interesting because those same Sigma wonders are mostly considered by the Japanese photographers I know here in Tokyo to have an ugly rendering compared to their Nikon equivalents. ;)

They consider that look at f1.4 is the most important aspect of those lenses, far more so than their DxO rating.

This is what Nikon focuses on in their designs.

I personaly own the Sigma 35mm f1.4, and find it very sharp... but I am lot in love with its bokeh. I far prefer the overal feel of the images shot with the Nikon 35mm f1.4.

Cheers,
Bernard

David Anderson

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2015, 03:53:17 pm »


I have been "tolerating" Nikon color for a while now.

Yeah, that's my one real gripe with Nikon after the switch from Canon.
The images out of the 800's are flat as a tack and need more work than what I shot on 1DsIII's.
That said, a little post and they can be amazing compared to what you got out of DSLR's previously.

As far as the future is concerned, I see Nikon as very much still in the game, but against a very determined Sony and a reawakening Canon.
All this competition is good for photographers.
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kers

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2015, 08:12:40 pm »

Nikon has the 1 series of camera's for some time now while gathering experience and at some point they will introduce it to full frame.
I guess it will be this year or 2016. There are still some problems with the OVF -
slower - missing the action- the AF on the sensor means you mutilate the image a bit...



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rogan

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2015, 08:49:01 pm »

After further thought though I think it should have the ability to have it's own lenses and the G lenses.
The new 25 batis is so nice partly because you aren't designing around a mirror box. It makes lenses sharper and smaller.
Then an adapter to use G lenses at the same speed as it would be the same basic technology.
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Some Guy

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2015, 10:28:30 pm »

I'll guess Nikon will at some point come out with some huge megapixel mirrorless.  I hope it isn't so flimsy and tiny that it will be like hanging a cellphone on the back of their 70-200mm f/2.8 though.  Haven't been all that impressed with EVF either over optical, and LCD on the back is worse for me in daylight.

Aside, somewhere back I read that Sony was using Nikon's stepper technology to make the first large sensors for Nikon as well as Nikon's microscope imaging that Sony does not have.  Seems it was a partnership of sharing some technology, just Nikon stipulated using it first before Sony could make their own iterations.

Thing that scares me about Sony is they just abandon stuff in a few years.  Think about Betamax, Walkman, Watchman, XQD cards, Memory Sticks, Trinitron, and now they stopped making personal computers and just dumped their Vaio laptops too.  I wouldn't trust building a system around Sony, plus their service always sucks no matter the device they made (and worse than Nikon too!).  Lenses are a bit slow too against some of the faster Canon f/1.2 glass and some of the Nikons.  I wouldn't be surprised if the dump the a lineup and go to a new mount, or just dump the entire line and make sensors and chips for cellphones.

I'm waiting to see what becomes of the Light.co L-16 thing too next year.  I'm getting too old to lug this heavy stuff all over the place, plus the sheer size of it has gotten me into issues with permits and rangers too claiming (from its size) "It must be for commercial use and you need some $300 daily permit."  If I could get good imaging out of some 1 pound bag of gear then I'd jump ship.  No way would I attempt to bag and carry 4x5 or even MF now, much less plug-in another bag of tethering stuff too.  Leave that stuff in the studio... forever.  Don't know if the L-16 camera will be a game changer or not and hurt the big guys, but I saw where Apple took out a patent based on the Light.co folded-optics design last week so something must be in that for their future.

SG
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razrblck

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2015, 05:39:43 am »

I tried the EVF on the OM-D EM-5 mk.II and it was really amazing. That being said I used OVFs since my parents gave my a Olympus OM-1n when I was very little, so I can go either way.

As long as I can take pictures, I don't care!
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dwswager

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Re: Nikon's Future
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2015, 08:33:13 pm »

Yeah, that's my one real gripe with Nikon after the switch from Canon.
The images out of the 800's are flat as a tack and need more work than what I shot on 1DsIII's.
That said, a little post and they can be amazing compared to what you got out of DSLR's previously.


I just don't get this.  It all depends on profile used for shooting JPG or for NEF conversion.  Both are editable, but the profiles in camera are more of a chore. 

I highly recommend a colorchecker passport custom profile.  Even if you just make a single dual illuminant profile for your camera and use that it will be much better than Adobe Standard in ACR or more neutral than any of the Nikon profiles.  I found the size of correction mores dramatically decreased once I started with a custom profile.
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