Sony A7RII Review - Dynamic Range...

[Torbjörn Tapani]

Josh how can you fail to recognize that this was a look at one aspect of performance. The full review is being worked on by Michael. It says so in the introduction.

[amolitor]

But if I am driving my kids to school, I don't care which car fails first under racing conditions. I want to know about cup holders.

Not to throw stones, though. It was definitely a fun video with a lot of interesting data. Just not data that's really useful to me. I love Top Gear. But I use a Toyota Sienna.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I don't think so. Raw compression has little to do with dynamic range.

As it is now, it has a delta compression that ideally is lossless but can introduce artefacts on high contrast edges. Taking out that delta compression would be a good thing, but it would not affect DR.

Another factor is that Sony's data representation is actually more 13 bits than 14 bits. That may be more of a limitation. The elephant in the saloon is that Sony switches to 12 bit mode in a lot of cases.

Best regards
Erik

I know I should probably watch the video first (and please spank me if that addresses this but...)


now that Sony has announced a lossless raw format for this camera is to be forthcoming, will this need to be redone? Or is the feeling that while it will help deliver better quality images (in various cases), it won't impact DR?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I don't think so. Raw compression has little to do with dynamic range.

Hi Erik,

I also do not think that delta compression as such, makes any difference. It is totally reversible, without loss if implemented as it should be.

As it is now, it has a delta compression that ideally is lossless but can introduce artefacts on high contrast edges. Taking out that delta compression would be a good thing, but it would not affect DR.

Indeed. Delta compression simply allows to capture spatial luminance variations in smaller numerical values, which would allow faster data transmission, and potentially smaller compressed results (depending on the type of compression and amount of time/power that can be allotted).

Another factor is that Sony's data representation is actually more 13 bits than 14 bits. That may be more of a limitation. The elephant in the saloon is that Sony switches to 12 bit mode in a lot of cases.

Now that is the real issue, and that can cause issues in reconstruction. Especially when the compression would also be somewhat 'lossy' or technically more correct 'irreversible'.

Cheers,
Bart

[ilsiu]

Is DR all people care about these days? What happened to caring more about 'Good photography'?

I think lots of people still care about good photography, especially this website.  Here's a sampling of non-technical articles that focus on the art, craft, and philosophy of photography from just the past two months.

https://luminous-landscape.com/loving-long-expsoure/
https://luminous-landscape.com/elements-principles-design/
https://luminous-landscape.com/circular-fisheye-photography/
https://luminous-landscape.com/windows-or-mirrors/
https://luminous-landscape.com/silo-city-again-challenging-yourself-to-see-different/
https://luminous-landscape.com/the-perfect-photograph/
https://luminous-landscape.com/developing-a-personal-style/
https://luminous-landscape.com/on-the-deeper-meaning-of-seeing/

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Marc,

I would say that I have been lucky enough to have cameras with a decent amount of DR all the time. Back in 2006 when I was shooting a Konica Minolta Dimage 7D sometimes I felt that DR was lacking and darks were not really good. But since that time I have been quite happy with all Sony cameras I had.

I have been shooting with a P45+ for about two years, and I found that DR was a bit limited compared to late generation Sonys, but it was really (almost) never a real problem. Knowing your system, shooting ETTR and do some bracketing solves many problems.

That said, I feel that plenty of DR is a god thing. What we need to keep in mind that good DR essentially mean clean shadows. There is nothing like highlight DR, just bad exposures. Expose correctly ETTR and any sensor will be optimally utilised.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Are you still flying for Emirates (?) or have you retired and doing some supersonic loudspeaker designs?

I think DR was very important when digital cameras or slide film did not have the dynamic range (static) of human sight. Now that current sensors accomplish this you can capture and print a scene that represents what you saw. Now its how much highlight recovery or shadow recovery or sloppy exposure you can tolerate. But you are buying "a refrigerator full of the same film for 3 years" so why not buy the best film for your purpose? I think we have some great resources to evaluate a new purchase, LULA, DPReview, DxOmark, Photozone reading all will give you a balanced review.
Marc

[dreed]

...
It's like testing which car goes round the track faster than another. This can tell you something about how the car handles at the extremes, including acceleration, top speed, braking, handling, etc, etc.
...

I used to think that there was no point to this, or massively powerful engines..

Then I learned about the difficulty in overtaking on country roads - it needs to be done as quickly as possible and as safely as possible. For this, quick acceleration and braking are key.

Which is to say that what's being tested is quite likely importand and useful even if we don't know how it relates to our day to day use.

[ednazarko]

It's among the few remaining aspects of photo tech where you can geek out on specs while claiming this means something when applied to actually taking photos. Thus the intensified attention paid to it. No doubt when all cameras have 16+ usable stops of DR we'll come up with something else to avoid confronting our own limitations as photographers. 

-Dave-

It's amazing how much focus there is on DR.  Professional photographers used to shoot transparency film, despite it's distinct disadvantage in DR to color negative film, because that's what the customers wanted.  Somehow they still managed to produce jaw dropping spreads in Nat Geo and Sports Illustrated.

My smartphone's got more DR than Ektachrome.  I mean really...   

[BernardLanguillier]

In the end, the purchase of a new camera ends up being a good move in the mid term (after the "I got a great new toy" phase ends) if it allows to capture observably better images. That includes images better than those you would not have taken before because the image was outside the scope of achievable imagery with your old gear (you left it home cos' it was too big/heavy, AF wasn't able to deal with the subject, the camera died of water exposure, the scene was so contrasty you didn't bother attempting the shot, auto ISO was stuck on too high a minimal shutter speed although you had zoomed to 24mm and noise killed the shot, you were busy checking focus peaking and missed the 0.5 second smile of your daughter,...).

That's the reason why the purchase I made these past years of exotic gear such as a Betterlight back, a Hassy V system,... were clearly very poor purchasing decisions by the way.

Anyway, tests such as this one are relevant and interesting data points in the selection process but whether this data point will trigger a purchasing decision depends on individual needs.

I am on the fence for the a7rII. It offers very little in image quality vs my current gear, it will in fact be a regression for a large majority of what I shoot, especially when considering body + lens. The only measurable advantage in the end is likely to be compactness, which may help with the "I had left my camera home" use case... except the I haven't found that the D810 + Otus 85mm f1.4 is really a problem carrying around even for casual shooting such as the family camping weekend I am just back from. I was tempted by the EVF focusing with manual lenses, but I am forced to realize that I am getting nowadays a high ratio of very well focus images using the OVF for close to mid distance subjects and live view for more distant ones.

My current take is therefore that the a7rII is too expensive for the value it would bring me, but it is clearly the camera I would buy if I were starting from scratch and didn't need the super teles.

I will keep monitoring the Sony alpha system and may invest at a later stage. In the mean time I'll save for the future P1 large CMOS camera or Leica S 008.

Cheers,
Bernard

[marcmccalmont]

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Are you still flying for Emirates (?) or have you retired and doing some supersonic loudspeaker designs?

Erik
Left Qatar for Saudia so still in the Mid East but a very good company one that I will retire from, on par with my first airline Pan Am and Japan Airlines that I worked for. 6 years till I retire and design/build loudspeakers again
Thanks
Marc

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I also do not think that delta compression as such, makes any difference. It is totally reversible, without loss if implemented as it should be.

Apparently, it was not implemented as it should be, it used an additional localized 16 pixel block compression. According to DPreview, this is fixed in the upcoming uncompressed version, and they also believe that the fall back to 13-bit quantization is gone.

Cheers,
Bart

[Rob C]

That's the reason why the purchase I made these past years of exotic gear such as a Betterlight back, a Hassy V system,... were clearly very poor purchasing decisions by the way.

Cheers,
Bernard

My God that hurts!

If I could, I'd go back to my two 500 Series bodies and a 180mm lens. And probaly nothing beyond that. In any format.

I'm so bored wandering around going click! at almost anything that stands a chance of turning into a picture. I came to realise some time ago that the only thing that I honestly care a damn about in photography is the human element, and of that, the face tells more than anything else. One good face, and you can work as long as you like.

But, the rub: to get the best out of the 'blad you need 6x6. That square fills so beautifully, and to have to think again about masks, outer limits etc. defeats the beauty of the system and how those focal lengths really work within their natural space.

Rob C

[AlfSollund]

Thanks for sharing this review.

Frankly I dont get the negative postings. Some are interested in tech aspects. Those intersted in other topics of photo can safely ignore this video and publish their own articles.

On my wish-list is a short text summary of findings. Its my personale problem to be attentive to videos longer than 3 seconds and to unmute sound at all. Perhaps this is the way to go with reviews, but I doubt on video versus text for informative content as this. Please dont let this rant destroy the pleasure of well made content, and keep up the good work.

[stevesanacore]

Thats why we have Grad ND filters 

Actually in all seriousness.. more DR can really help in certain limited situations. However, the fascination with it (speaking generally for what is rampant on the web) as the 'be all and end' I find over the top.

Measuring DR seems to be the trendy thing to do these days.. I for one would rather see more general reviews about how these machines actually perform in the field in real world use. With thoughts on battery life, ergonomics, general usability, weather sealing etc. In other words, look at the full gamut of what makes a camera great; rather than distilling it down to the 'DR' argument.

I think we've reached what we need in the way of resolution but dynamic range still has a ways to go. Even in the film days, we all wanted more dynamic range. Ask a top cinematographer what he wants most out of a new camera and he will most likely say "dynamic range", not 4k or 8k, but more dynamic range. As an architectural photographer, I can say 20 megapixels is quite enough for 99% of my work, but I'll take all the dynamic range I can get. The more stops of shadow and highlight I can capture, the less lighting I would be forced to do to capture a natural looking space. It lets me concentrate on the composition and the feeling I have for a space rather than worrying about deep shadows that I'll have to contend with. Basically it lets me think about the aesthetics and not the technical. Isn't that what we all want?

[Telecaster]

As an architectural photographer, I can say 20 megapixels is quite enough for 99% of my work, but I'll take all the dynamic range I can get. The more stops of shadow and highlight I can capture, the less lighting I would be forced to do to capture a natural looking space.

Yes. More DR is certainly a Good Thing. I poke fun at our fixation with it not to diminish its importance but to note that techie types such as myself tend to fixate as much for its own sake as for real-world benefit. The pleasure of obsessing. We should try to be self-aware enough to realize this when we're doing it…which might then help cut down on flame wars, excessive pedantry, etc.

-Dave-

[tnargs]

The A7rII is going to be junk when the III comes out. I'm guessing January based upon Sony's recently accelerated new model release schedule, plus knowing that their next gen sensor is already in their 1" models.

We need to be constantly buying latest model cameras because our images deserve no less.

[Torbjörn Tapani]

Sony have multiple generations of cameras available. If your needs are met by the previous RX100 you can still buy it new.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

It was a painful wait of two years for the A7rII. The sensor in the A7rII is a totally new generation, backside illuminated and using copper interconnects.

Best regards
Erik

The A7rII is going to be junk when the III comes out. I'm guessing January based upon Sony's recently accelerated new model release schedule, plus knowing that their next gen sensor is already in their 1" models.

We need to be constantly buying latest model cameras because our images deserve no less.

[tnargs]

Hi,

It was a painful wait of two years for the A7rII. The sensor in the A7rII is a totally new generation, backside illuminated and using copper interconnects.

Best regards
Erik

But not stacked Exmor as per their current 1". Wait a bit LOL

[jeremyrh]

Yes. More DR is certainly a Good Thing. I poke fun at our fixation with it not to diminish its importance but to note that techie types such as myself tend to fixate as much for its own sake as for real-world benefit. The pleasure of obsessing. We should try to be self-aware enough to realize this when we're doing it…which might then help cut down on flame wars, excessive pedantry, etc.

-Dave-

Amen to that !