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Author Topic: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?  (Read 31594 times)

Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2015, 08:41:24 am »

Fuji for a nominal ISO after 1600-2000 simply writes an instruction in a raw file for a raw converter to add a hidden expocorrection (or may be even does not do this - it is up for a raw converter to know)... so you mean good low ISO noise characteristics, right ?


I meant relatively low noise at higher ISO.

I don't understand what you mean about Fuji's handling of ISOs above 1600. Could you explain that some more?
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Bob Rockefeller
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 10:43:01 am »

As I read the input here, take pictures with both camera, and read reviews across the web, I wonder if the questions boil down to one:

Does the E-M1's smaller sensor size suit better me than the X-T1's lack of stabilized "fast glass" (f2.8 or better - except for the 50-140 f2.8)?

The smaller, stabilized, sensor in the E-M1 leads to overall higher noise (at equivalent ISO) and greater depth of field (at equivalent focal length and aperture). But the lack of stabilization on Fuji fast glass, and smaller apertures on the stabilized lenses, can lead to the same place - higher ISO and greater depth of field.

On so many other points the cameras are essentially, or exactly, equal.

Are there some other significant differences?
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Bob Rockefeller
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rdonson

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 11:07:17 am »

Bob, I went through the same amount of mental gymnastics before choosing my X-T1.  You can't go wrong with either camera.  Until you put either one of these in your hands and use them you won't be able to really decide.  The sensor size, noise levels, which produces better IQ, etc. are simply pixel peeping that in the end don't matter all that much because the differences are small.  Decide based on which one feels right to you.
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Rand47

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2015, 05:55:32 pm »

Quote
Are there some other significant differences?

I think there is a significant difference that hasn't been emphasized here.  The Olympus cameras are "fully typically digital" - and I don't mean that in a bad way.  Wheels to control things, menu diving for the rest, etc. and VERY highly configurable so that you don't have to do a lot of menu diving - once set up to your liking.

The Fuji X-T1 more "analog" in the control layout as a "significant" difference in the handling of the two cameras.  Fuji is all rings and dials and buttons and "everything visible at a glance."

I think this difference in "style of use" is probably more significant than the differences in image quality for all but very large prints.

Therefore, I think renting each and using it for a week or so will tell you more than "spec comparisons" would ever do.  You can't lose either way.

Rand
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2015, 06:15:13 pm »

The Olympus cameras are "fully typically digital" - and I don't mean that in a bad way.  Wheels to control things, menu diving for the rest, etc. and VERY highly configurable so that you don't have to do a lot of menu diving - once set up to your liking.

The Fuji X-T1 more "analog" in the control layout as a "significant" difference in the handling of the two cameras.  Fuji is all rings and dials and buttons and "everything visible at a glance."

This is true and is a significant difference.

The E-M1 has a pretty traditional, modern, dSLR-style interface - lots of buttons that can change the effect of the anonymous dials. Customizable buttons and a nice Super Control Panel allow you to avoid the worst of the menu hunt (through what may not be the best organized menus in the business).

But it's very different, mostly analog, approach the X-T1 has taken. As I use the X-T1, I'm struck by how well Fuji has done in this analog regard, and how many times the real nature of a digital camera pokes through.

For example, the aperture ring on many of their lenses is not marked, either because the lens has a variable aperture or they just didn't do it. In those cases, the aperture ring becomes "just another dial" on a modern camera. Not a bad thing, but a crack in the veneer.

Another example is the case of changing auto-focus modes (single point, group, or wide tracking). That can be done from within a menu or from the Quick Menu display. No analog possibilities there. And still another is selecting ⅓ point shutter speeds - the dial is in full stops (plus maximum flash sync) and you use a modifier to get "in between."

None of that suggests Fuji engineers made bad choices or a poor design; simply that a modern, advanced, digital camera has gone far beyond what analog controls would reasonably allow for.
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Bob Rockefeller
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Eric Brody

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2015, 11:08:54 pm »

I had an Olympus, loved the IBIS. I could mount an old 90mm f/2.8 Elmarit and have a 180mm f/2.8 stabilized lens. But... as a number of people have stated, the Oly did have noise at base iso that was annoying to me. I've never really had a problem with the X-trans sensor and now it's even better in Lightroom. While the difference in size is small, sensor real estate matters, maybe that's the source of the base iso noise in the Oly.

In any case, I shoot almost all primes with my X T-1 and find them to be absolutely superb. Yes, my D800E on a tripod with live view, beats all... if you make a large enough print. But who really makes many 30x40 prints? Honestly.

The op is in a pretty much no lose situation. It all depends on what you love and what bothers you about a given system. For me, I could not abide the noise, for others it's x-trans. I'm hoping for a 24MP X Pro-2. I always liked the form factor of my X E-1.

Best of luck.

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viewfinder

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2015, 03:25:04 am »

Something not mentioned so far is the difference in format shape......both cameras are 16 mp but cropping away pixels may be undesirable for larger printing sizes.      If you like/use/prefer, the 'squarer' format as favoured by m43 then that camera will give you the best compromise as the APS-C requires the sides cropped off to emulate it, thus losing pixels.    If you prefer a longer fomat shape or are engaged in stage photography etc then the APS has the upper hand and the m43 will lose the most pixels because the top and bottom edges have to be cropped away....
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Robert Falconer

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2015, 08:19:42 am »

I would propose that the Fuji wins on overall IQ and high ISO performance, with an overall greater richness and depth in the files [though the Olympus offers excellent image acuity and strong performance, too, below ISO 800. I prefer not to go past 1600 with the Olympus [3200 if I must], though with the Fuji I will push to 6400 if need be. 3200 most assuredly looks better from the Fuji than it does from the Olympus.

Generally, however, I find that the Olympus sensor needs a better "quality" of light to perform optimally.

As Kevin said, Capture One is excellent for the Fuji files. Meanwhile, the Olympus files seem to do best with DXO Optics Pro. Olympus Viewer software is excellent, too, but it's dog slow and the interface isn't particularly intuitive.

Ergonomically, it mostly comes down to personal taste when comparing the X-T1 and E-M1. The former is more retro, something we veteran shooters often tend to gravitate to, and a facility that enables fast control of dials without having to hunt through menus, potentially speeding up operation.

The Olympus body is probably a bit more rugged overall, and the deeper grip is definitely beneficial. Despite a more contemporary control interface, the Olympus controls are superbly laid out once you have everything configured to your taste. Olympus' menu system is atrocious, though.

I would say EVFs are a wash. And I would say lens quality between the two lines is similarly a toss-up; both make superb optics with lots of choices for discerning shooters.

Autofocus speed goes to the Olympus … by a nose. Though the X-T1's new tracking modes with the 4.0 firmware update offer more versatility, I think.

The m4/3 system will be a bit smaller overall once you factor in lenses.

At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself: what am I going to shoot with this camera?

There will definitely be an X-Pro 2 next year, and you can expect at least 24mp. That's all I can say.
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2015, 08:26:47 am »

I would propose that the Fuji wins on overall IQ and high ISO performance, with an overall greater richness and depth in the files [though the Olympus offers excellent image acuity and strong performance, too, below ISO 800. I prefer not to go past 1600 with the Olympus [3200 if I must], though with the Fuji I will push to 6400 if need be. 3200 most assuredly looks better from the Fuji than it does from the Olympus.

This is a solid point. But I wonder if the E-M1's IBIS means that you can more often keep it in its "good" ISO range compared the Fuji's unstabilized lens? I'm thinking mostly of the 60mm f2.4 macro, the 23 f1.4, and the 16-55 f2.8.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2015, 09:40:24 am »

I would propose that the Fuji wins on overall IQ and high ISO performance

I'd propose to study BClaff's data = http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Fujifilm%20X-T1,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1

Fuji has advantage almost exactly as the size of APS-C sensor vs m43 sensor (no, it is not 1 stop, quite less than that... Panasonic sensor is 1.9 crop actually, not 2 crop) ... so whether somebody wants to trade what you see in tests vs way better AF / IS and no issues with X-Trans demosaicking is a question to answer

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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2015, 09:42:19 am »

But I wonder if the E-M1's IBIS
also - Fuji does not have EFCS either, so even pseudo EFCS in E-M1 scores...
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2015, 09:45:09 am »

though with the Fuji I will push to 6400 if need be. 3200 most assuredly looks better from the Fuji
Fuji does not go with real gain in camera after ~ISO1600 past that you simply get a tag in a raw file instruction raw converter to add a hidden exposure correction... so if you are a raw shooter you do not compare ISO6400 @ Fuji with ISO6400 @ Olympus... you equal the exposure (aperture and exposure time) and select the best ISO for both cameras... and that is not ISO6400 mind you... certainly for a OOC JPG shooter that's does not work, there you compare @ equal ISO
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2015, 09:48:39 am »

Fuji does not go with real gain in camera after ~ISO1600 past that you simply get a tag in a raw file instruction raw converter to add a hidden exposure correction.

Since DxOMark does not test x-trans sensors, is there a definitive comparison of Fuji's ISO vs measured ISO somewhere else?
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Bob Rockefeller
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2015, 09:51:34 am »

Since DxOMark does not test x-trans sensors, is there a definitive comparison of Fuji's ISO vs measured ISO somewhere else?

yes, I posted the link... or you simply can convert Fuji raws to DNG with Adobe tools and check the tag that control a hidden exposure correction (along with the constant tag in DCP camera profile) for ACR/LR... that simple... you can see what Fuji does @ higher nominal ISOs
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Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #34 on: September 18, 2015, 09:57:21 am »

yes, I posted the link... or you simply can convert Fuji raws to DNG with Adobe tools and check the tag that control a hidden exposure correction (along with the constant tag in DCP camera profile) for ACR/LR... that simple... you can see what Fuji does @ higher nominal ISOs

That link suggests the the X-T1 loses no dynamic range above 3200 indicated ISO. It doesn't tell me whether Fuji's ISO is "real" or overstated.

Something like this: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Olympus/OM-D-E-M1---Measurements

Am I missing something about the data?
« Last Edit: September 18, 2015, 10:01:39 am by Bob Rockefeller »
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Bob Rockefeller
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #35 on: September 18, 2015, 10:09:23 am »

That link suggests the the X-T1 loses no dynamic range above 3200 indicated ISO.
it shows that Fuji stops applying either analog (pre ADC) and/or digital (post ADC) gain and simply switches to tag in raw file... 
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AlterEgo

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #36 on: September 18, 2015, 10:13:29 am »

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armand

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #37 on: September 18, 2015, 12:31:40 pm »

In the midst of this claimed superiority of E-M1 ( I wonder why so many people still get the X-T1 if E-M1 is so much better), if you get your sensor dirty you will find it more difficult to clean it as technically you have to send it back to Olympus.
Now some super users claim the Olympus never gets dust on its sensor but for the mortals this is another thing to consider.

Bob Rockefeller

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #38 on: September 18, 2015, 12:35:54 pm »

In the midst of this claimed superiority of E-M1 ( I wonder why so many people still get the X-T1 if E-M1 is so much better)

Horses for courses - the X-T1 has its individual strenghts.

if you get your sensor dirty you will find it more difficult to clean it as technically you have to send it back to Olympus.

I hadn't read anything on that. What makes it more difficult than any other sensor?
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Bob Rockefeller
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armand

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Re: Choose X-T1 or E-M1?
« Reply #39 on: September 18, 2015, 12:47:03 pm »

Horses for courses - the X-T1 has its individual strenghts.

I hadn't read anything on that. What makes it more difficult than any other sensor?

IBIS - the sensor is not fixed which makes cleaning more challenging.

For the X-T1 is similar to the DSLRs (a little easier, as there is no mirror and it's closer to the mount).
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