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Author Topic: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?  (Read 28380 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« on: September 08, 2015, 06:57:07 pm »

http://photorumors.com/2015/09/08/new-zeiss-otus-24mm-f1-4-lens-could-be-announced-this-week/

This may be a better long term investment that a new body these days.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 08, 2015, 07:08:41 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 04:01:50 am »

Interesting. I may be wrong, but historically (traditionally?) haven't Zeiss  produced 25mm lenses, rather than 24mm ones?

A wide angle Otus makes sense, but it possibly requires more "compromises" to be made than with the 50 and 85? If it is optically "perfect" (or near it) as its brothers, the price will be stratospheric...

I would also say that your title is a bit exaggerated? There are already several "excellent" wide angle lenses, right? Just kidding...

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 04:47:40 am »

Interesting. I may be wrong, but historically (traditionally?) haven't Zeiss  produced 25mm lenses, rather than 24mm ones?

A wide angle Otus makes sense, but it possibly requires more "compromises" to be made than with the 50 and 85? If it is optically "perfect" (or near it) as its brothers, the price will be stratospheric...

I would also say that your title is a bit exaggerated? There are already several "excellent" wide angle lenses, right? Just kidding...

Indeed, 25mm until now, but they had never done a 55mm till the Otus, so it may be correct.

I did hesitate a bit on the title. ;)

But if you review the absolute sharpness mark of short tele vs wides at lenscore.org, you can only reach the conclusion that there are in fact no excellent wide lenses at this point in time. Even the very best wides are pretty average compared to the current Otus.

Cheers,
Bernard

torger

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2015, 05:10:50 am »

Yes I'm very interested in this too. My question is can 135 compete with the sharpness and resolution you get from medium format tech camera wide angle lenses. If it can, it's a technological break-through. We're talking "large format" image quality in 135 format, it would be fantastic.

Wide angle lenses are the hardest to get sharp, much due to the strong retrofocus design required. Tech cams have less retrofocus and therefore can use other designs which are easier to make sharp.

With Canon's upcoming 120MP sensor and this new wide, perhaps the 80MP MFD backs with Rodenstock Digaron wides get real competition on the resolving power aspect?

As this have no movements the lens is not much interest to a tech cam user anyway of course, but it will be very interesting to see what today's optical technology can do.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 05:12:31 am by torger »
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synn

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2015, 05:32:32 am »

The true potential of such a lens would be realized on something like an Alpa FPS/ Hcam B1 and an MFDB, not 135 format, IMO.
But that said, given the usual pricing for Otii, I don't think it will be that much cheaper than the Rodenstocks.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2015, 05:50:10 am »

The true potential of such a lens would be realized on something like an Alpa FPS/ Hcam B1 and an MFDB, not 135 format, IMO.
But that said, given the usual pricing for Otii, I don't think it will be that much cheaper than the Rodenstocks.

Not sure why you are saying so.

IMHO, the main reason why 35mm results can come across as being not as appealing as MF is the lenses. Shoot with an Otus on a AA filter less sensor and you have the same look.

Cheers,
Bernard

torger

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2015, 06:38:24 am »

To me the large format creativity is the number one factor. Using a Linhof Techno with tilt, swing and rise/fall and shift on all lenses including the wides as it's builtin to the body (as it should be). Resolving power is number two.

But it's not hard to see that for the majority of MFD tech cam users resolving power is number one, and possibly also number two and three. Alpa FPS is basically just a bulky mirrorless with great resolving power. Its more cumbersome and limited in terms of movements, not at all in the spirit of large format if you'd ask me, but it's hugely more popular than for example the Linhof Techno. I think MFD has become too much about resolving power, and that is a bit unfortunate for the segment when the competition hardens.

I very much appreciate 135 progress though, because it drives down cost of MFD (at least in the second hand space where I'm mostly moving), and if MFD continues in the wrong direction the coming years and loses attraction to me (less large format, more just upsized A7 mirrorless), I can step back to 135 and have about the same thing but at a lower cost.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2015, 07:02:51 am »

To me the large format creativity is the number one factor.

I can relate to that. Although I rarely have time to play with it, I love working with my Ebony and Betterlight back.

But I don't think that this is what Synn was referring to.

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2015, 07:17:36 am »

I can relate to that. Although I rarely have time to play with it, I love working with my Ebony and Betterlight back.

But I don't think that this is what Synn was referring to.

Cheers,
Bernard

That is exactly what I was referring to.
A sharp lens is sharp, no matter what system it is on. But on a system that allows for more creative possibilities, it can realize its potential better.

Look at all the incredible work that is done using the Canon TS-Es and MF backs. Sure, the lenses are kick ass on canon (And now sony bodies), but the FPS and the H cam B1 have taken their potential to the next level.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2015, 07:25:23 am »

That is exactly what I was referring to.
A sharp lens is sharp, no matter what system it is on. But on a system that allows for more creative possibilities, it can realize its potential better.

OK, but what makes you think that the image circle of a lens designed for a 35mm sensor would be larger enough than 35mm to make such applications possible?

We are talking about the Zeiss Otus 24mm f1.4, right?

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2015, 07:28:30 am »

OK, but what makes you think that the image circle of a lens designed for a 35mm sensor would be larger enough than 35mm to make such applications possible?

We are talking about the Zeiss Otus 24mm f1.4, right?

Cheers,
Bernard


Of course, not every 35mm lens will work with such applications, but there have been many that do, as per the owners of the said cameras. This includes non T/S lenses too.

The Otii AFAIK have oversized image circles to provide edge to edge sharpess, so they should be viable candidates for such applications.

Of course, no one will know for sure until it's out. But I am willing to make a moderate wager that Stefan Steib will order one on day one. ;)
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torger

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2015, 07:30:09 am »

That is exactly what I was referring to.
A sharp lens is sharp, no matter what system it is on. But on a system that allows for more creative possibilities, it can realize its potential better.

Look at all the incredible work that is done using the Canon TS-Es and MF backs. Sure, the lenses are kick ass on canon (And now sony bodies), but the FPS and the H cam B1 have taken their potential to the next level.

Ok. I don't agree on this, but I'm aware there may be more than agree with you than me. Putting the TS-E lenses on the FPS and HCam makes them more wide angle with less movements. Although the wide angle records of the HCam does have it's own niche for those that love ultra-wide perspective distortion ;) (or more real application, for architecture photographers working in tight spaces and have no other option except stitching), the problem I have with these cameras is that they are not designed in the spirit of the large format tradition where movements are an integral part of composition. They also move towards more longer flange distance, making it impossible with symmetric wide angles, which make wide angles much more complex to design, larger heavier more expensive and requiring digital distortion correction.

In the medium format genre there is a possibility to make a really nice tradeoff between complexity and resolving power. You can make those symmetric small aperture lenses as you allow yourself to narrow down the type of photography the camera is useful for. In 135 all lenses must be wide aperture and retrofocus to just be more all-around for hand-held easier viewing etc. With the Alpa FPS and retrofocus tech cam wides I see a convergence, and I'm not so sure that's good for MFD in the longer term, but perhaps that's the only option that sells cameras.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:32:09 am by torger »
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synn

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2015, 07:33:22 am »

I agree with you torger that a simpler, view camera approach is more in the spirit of large format tradition. I myself am more of a fan of this, as you have seen recently elsewhere. ;)

But as you said, the frankencamera approach sells now and it does help some people do things that were not possible before.

Anyway, we are digressing.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2015, 07:54:29 am »

The Otii AFAIK have oversized image circles to provide edge to edge sharpess, so they should be viable candidates for such applications.

Yes, but they are optimised to deliver excellent image quality in the 35mm area. I wonder how well corrected they still are farther away from the centre, especially in a non symmetrical tilt scenario. On the other hand, the T/S lenses are typically average performers because they sacrifice resolution in the central part of their image circle in favour of a larger image circle.

Anyway, I may still have a 4x5 lens board enabling to mount 35mm lenses on my camera. I could try to measure the usable image circle of the Otii on the Betterlight if I have nothing else to do some day. I don't know when that would happen though.

In the mean time I'll keep shooting those on the DSLR on my favourite model. ;)







Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 08:08:45 am by BernardLanguillier »
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synn

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2015, 07:59:34 am »

That would actually be an interesting experiment. Hope you will find the time to do it.
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JohnBrew

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2015, 08:01:10 am »

I have shot a Rodenstock versus Otus test. It took a loupe and 24" prints to see the difference. It was truly splitting hairs, but the Rodie was just a bit sharper. A foot away you couldn't tell the difference.

I hope the 24 is something special because it will have to make a very persuasive case to replace my Zeiss 21. That and I'm not particularly interested in spending another 4 grand for a lens which weighs in around 2 pounds. The 55 is heavy enough, I sent back a Zeiss 135 because I just couldn't deal with the weight no matter how sharp.

Paul2660

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2015, 08:40:28 am »

It will be interesting to how this lens, when and if it happens, handles Coma.  So far, none of the 1.4 wides, (Canon, Nikon, Sigma, or Fuji) handle coma aberrations well at all.  As I assume this lens will cost over 4K, hopefully Zeiss will address coma.

Paul
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AreBee

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 08:58:36 am »

synn, Bernard,

Quote from: synn
The Otii AFAIK have oversized image circles...

The Otus 55mm f/1.4 image circle is at most 3mm oversized.

The Otus 85mm f/1.4 image circle is 10mm oversized.

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NancyP

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2015, 09:59:15 am »

Bernard, your little girl is so cute!
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Bo Dez

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Re: Finally an excellent wide angle lens?
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2015, 10:12:24 am »

I would prefer a 35mm Otus.
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