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Author Topic: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.  (Read 28525 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #60 on: September 12, 2015, 04:35:59 am »

Yes that's probably part of the idea. But what will happen if they don't deliver a product in the end? Not good strategy. So far they have delivered on these type of announcements where they actually mention a product. I think this one is a first for a SLR body, and is looser on the details than they use to be. We'll see.

Correct, and as the press release says "Canon developing next-generation imaging devices". It's a development report for the direction they are doing their research in, it's not a product announcement (as the thread title wrongly suggests). They are, admittedly, relatively concrete on things like compatible lenses and such, but that has more to do with the lens technology that they already know of that it will not be supported (chips/wiring in the lens do not record/transmit data that is needed).

Quote
I also agree that the performance of the ~2.7um pixel is a question mark, but my best guess is that the overall DR performance will be very similar to the current 5Ds. I don't think they would launch a sensor that would move them significantly backwards in a metric where they are struggling to keep up.

Indeed, but more importantly (and apparently overlooked by most) is that they seem to have found faster methods of reading out all that data from the sensor without hurting the quality as it is known now. They also mention in their development reports that it's a result of their own research/development.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 10:00:36 am by BartvanderWolf »
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MatthewCromer

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2015, 09:22:04 am »

Perhaps best to stick to answering the topic and save us from the moral high ground. Glass houses and so on.

If you imply that "Jap" is derogatory then not so.

From:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap

"Jap is an English abbreviation of the word "Japanese." Today it is generally regarded as an ethnic slur among Japanese minority populations in other countries, although English-speaking countries differ in the degree to which they consider the term offensive. In the United States, Japanese Americans have come to find the term controversial or offensive, even when used as an abbreviation.[1] In the past, Jap was not considered primarily offensive; however, during and after the events of World War II, the term became derogatory.[2]"

"Later popularized during World War II to describe those of Japanese descent, "Jap" was then commonly used in newspaper headlines to refer to the Japanese and Imperial Japan. "Jap" became a derogatory term during the war, more so than "Nip."[2] Veteran and author Paul Fussell explains the usefulness of the word during the war for creating effective propaganda by saying that "Japs" "was a brisk monosyllable handy for slogans like 'Rap the Jap' or 'Let's Blast the Jap Clean Off the Map.'"[2] Some in the United States Marine Corps tried to combine the word "Japs" with "apes" to create a new description, "Japes", for the Japanese; this neologism never became popular.[2]

In the United States the term is now considered derogatory; the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary notes it is "usually disparaging".[5][6] A snack food company in Chicago named Japps Foods (for the company founder) changed their name and eponymous potato chip brand to Jays Foods shortly after Pearl Harbor to avoid any negative associations with the name.[7]

Spiro Agnew was criticized in the media in 1968 for an offhand remark, intended to be jocular, referring to reporter Gene Oishi as a "fat Jap".[8]

In Texas, under pressure from civil rights groups, Jefferson County commissioners in 2004 decided to drop the name "Jap Road" from a 4.3-mile (6.9 km) road near the city of Beaumont. Also in adjacent Orange County, "Jap Lane" has also been targeted by civil rights groups.[9] The road was originally named for the contributions of Kichimatsu Kishi and the farming colony he founded. And in Arizona, the state department of transportation renamed "Jap Road" near Topock, Arizona to "Bonzai Slough Road" to note the presence of Japanese agricultural workers and family-owned farms along the Colorado River there in the early 20th century.[citation needed]

In 2003, the Japanese deputy ambassador to the United Nations, Yoshiyuki Motomura, protested the North Korean ambassador's use of the term in retaliation for a Japanese diplomat's use of the term "North Korea" instead of the official name, "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".[10]

In 2011, following the term's offhand use in a March 26 article appearing in The Spectator ("white-coated Jap bloke"), the Minister of the Japanese Embassy in London protested that "most Japanese people find the word 'Jap' offensive, irrespective of the circumstances in which it is used."[11]"

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torger

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2015, 04:31:42 am »

The latest rumor says a real product based on the prototype is at least 2 years away. A fair bit longer than for previous in-development releases, but those has been more concrete too. So assuming the rumor is true I guess the naysayers gains one point here ;D

There are still lenses that need updating though and a high resolution camera is not much worth without matching lenses so hopefully they manage to crank out a few more high res lenses during that time period.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2015, 06:53:23 am »

There are still lenses that need updating though and a high resolution camera is not much worth without matching lenses so hopefully they manage to crank out a few more high res lenses during that time period.

In principle all lenses would benefit from the higher sampling density (the System_MTF benefits from the Lens_MTF x Sensor_MTF), but better lenses would also factor in to the overall quality. That of course also firmly creates an image stabilization challenge.
And some of the folks here could also use a bit of stabilization it seems ;)

Cheers,
Bart
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bjanes

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2015, 07:13:00 am »

In principle all lenses would benefit from the higher sampling density (the System_MTF benefits from the Lens_MTF x Sensor_MTF), but better lenses would also factor in to the overall quality. That of course also firmly creates an image stabilization challenge.
And some of the folks here could also use a bit of stabilization it seems ;)

As Bart and others have pointed out in these threads, oversampling does have its benefits, but there is such a thing as an optimal pixel size as discussed in this link:

Stanford paper:
 "For a typical O.35p CMOS technology the optimal pixel size is found to be approximately 6.5,am at fill factor of 30%. It is shown that the optimal pixel size scales with technology, but at slower rate than the technology itself."


Unless Canon were to develop a whole new sensor technology rather than tweaking current designs, I would not be interested in their 120 MP chip.

Regards,

Bill
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Ken R

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2015, 07:25:41 am »

The higher sampling density should also improve color. I mean, there has been a LOT of tech advancements in digital imaging but most sensors still use a bayer color filter array (or some variation of it) to get color information. Color gradients are rendered much better with the higher resolution sensors. At least that has been my experience. I am no scientist or engineer. It is not all about resolution.   
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BobShaw

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2015, 07:51:02 am »

In the United States the term (Jap) is now considered derogatory;
Really?
" Now" is exactly what I mean by glass houses. I would love to hear your explanation of the US history on civil rights. How did you get Hawaii? What was the "Yellow Peril"?
I'm an Ozzie and proud of it. My friends from New Zealand are Kiwis and proud of that.
I'm sure you would describe yourself as an American which is pretty derogatory to people in Brazil, Mexico,  and a whole pile of other countries in one of the two continents that are America.
It is just a common abbreviation so lets move on.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2015, 08:14:29 am »

As Bart and others have pointed out in these threads, oversampling does have its benefits, but there is such a thing as an optimal pixel size as discussed in this link...
I guess that would be an "optimal pixel size for a given process technology", not "an optimal pixel size". As process tech change over time (and over manufacturers strategies), the "optimal pixel size" would also change.

An alternate definition of "optimal pixel size" would be the size that, given practical OLPF and color filtering, is sufficient to capture every concievable bit of detail rendered by any ideal/available lens at any setting and any wavelength. My impression is that we are far away from that limit yet.

-h
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DucatiTerminator

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2015, 11:19:27 am »

Really?
" Now" is exactly what I mean by glass houses. I would love to hear your explanation of the US history on civil rights. How did you get Hawaii? What was the "Yellow Peril"?
I'm an Ozzie and proud of it. My friends from New Zealand are Kiwis and proud of that.
I'm sure you would describe yourself as an American which is pretty derogatory to people in Brazil, Mexico,  and a whole pile of other countries in one of the two continents that are America.
It is just a common abbreviation so lets move on.

Relax, Mate.

As an American (born and raised) of Japanese descent who grew up in a predominantly white neighborhood, I know what it's like to be picked on every day, beat up weekly, and what it feels like to be called "Jap" in a derogatory sense to the point it was almost a nickname. Maybe it was because I was the shortest, scrawniest, and the easiest target, who knows? I got a lot bigger, a lot stronger and learned to fight, and while I'm not proud of parts of my youth, calling me "Jap" usually ended up a painful and embarrassing regret to he who uttered it, even if it wasn't meant in a derogatory sense. I grew up to be fairly thick-skinned, and in college, learned that JAP also stood for Jewish American Princess. BTW, I don't now how it is Down Under, but I have never heard the terms Ozzie and Kiwi used in a negative way, at least not here, nor among the international racing circles with whom I rub shoulders.

It no longer bothers me, however, I believe that this is a US-based forum, with a majority of US-based members -- it's not surprising that your "common abbreviation" will draw some criticism. One of my kids (who is half European) recently got called "Jap" and "Chink" because he stole someone's starting position on the football team. I do understand it's the context in which something is said, and I certainly didn't take your comment offensively in any way, however, saying that in certain circles here probably wouldn't bode well for you. Just sayin'
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MatthewCromer

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2015, 02:08:58 pm »

Really?
" Now" is exactly what I mean by glass houses. I would love to hear your explanation of the US history on civil rights. How did you get Hawaii? What was the "Yellow Peril"?

I never made a defense of the way the United States treated ethnic minorities.

Jap is offensive in the United States as well as in many other countries. Kiwi and Ozzie are not offensive in any countries AFAIK.
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BobShaw

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2015, 05:06:13 pm »

Terrific, let's move on.
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D White

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2015, 05:31:04 pm »

Forum threads always seem to degenerate into some form of one-upmanship, slander, ultra fanboy, and negativity.

Who really cares if Canon had a pre announcement that seems to threaten certain Nikon / Sony fanboys, (you know who you are). They will either come up with something or they don't. Product lines will evolve for all competitors. Telling people over and over that Canon has shitty sensors indicates you have nothing better to do or contribute to advancing the art of photography. Have you actually shot with a 5Ds, rather than reviewing some test site with cryptic data? The 5Ds produces great usable images day in and day out, a very nice camera. Is it the best or does it suck compared to all else? All I know is I get great images for me and I push my files quite a bit. I agree that past bodies could produce unwanted pattern noise at low ISO if really pushed, but I am not seeing it any more and I am very satisfied with the results I am seeing. Canon does seem to be on the right path, bodies and lenses.

Few people will ever need 120MP. I print quite large and find it unlikely to want more than the 50 I now have. In fact, I use the Olympus EM-1 with a crop of their pro lenses for over seas travel such as my current couple of months in Italy right now. It makes great 20x30 prints on my Epson. Just saying as I am not a Canon fan boy per say and would switch to anything if I felt it would strongly advance my needs and art overall. Right now the micro 4/3 has great advantage as a travel photography platform and will likely improve even more over time. The Canon is becoming my medium format when the weight of all those L lenses is not an issue.

It was a rainy day in Italy today, otherwise I do not think I would waste my time reading all this crap and adding my own thoughts. Back to some image editing for now.

Dr D White
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2015, 07:04:40 pm »

Dr White,

FF talk being strongly discouraged in these MF parts, you are one daring man to further bring up 4/3 cameras! Way to go, please tell us about your iphone 6 photography next time! ;)



Besides, I am not sure why you choose to use brand loyalty as the driving force to explain what is only amusement at Canon marketing's moves. Wouldn't true fanboys feel a lot more threatened by real and useful product annoucements (such as the fascinating blue lens elements or the amazing new 600mm f4 DO) rather than by what can only be described as marketing wind?



Finally, congratulations for your new 5Ds, certainly a very competent camera. I am sure that you'll soon post amazing photographs demonstrating us how irrelevant those DR talks are to good photography (no irony here).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 14, 2015, 08:07:36 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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D White

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #73 on: September 15, 2015, 12:19:57 am »

I did not start the FF 35 thread here in the MF forum. Once started, anything goes.

Once again you miss the point or just want an argument.

Your comment clearly implies that without an extra stop of Holy DR at base ISO I will be completely crippled in the creation of good images. Do you have any idea how immature that sounds. Your making a fool of yourself.

D White
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2015, 02:00:57 am »

Your comment clearly implies that without an extra stop of Holy DR at base ISO I will be completely crippled in the creation of good images. Do you have any idea how immature that sounds. Your making a fool of yourself.

Where on earth did you read that?

That's not how I feel at all, nor is it what I wrote... at all (nor in this thread, nor ever before). In fact, I wrote the exact opposite, clearly labeling it as "devoid of irony" to avoid any misunderstanding.

As far as wanting an argument, many reasonable people would just see this as differences in sense of humor... I got your point allright and did answer, but that's the part of my post you apparently choose to ignore.

Cheers,
Bernard

p.s.: does DDS stand for Doctor of Dental Surgery? For what it's worth, I have been spending lots of time in the competent hands of your Japanese colleagues recently.  :)
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 03:02:26 am by BernardLanguillier »
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D White

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2015, 03:04:21 am »

Bernard,

I retired from the practice of dentistry at 51 to pursue my photography and travel.

I fully respect your art of photography.

Although the persuit of photographic art requires degrees of technical knowledge, in my opinion many threads end up focusing on minutiae and almost zealous dogma that ultimately contribute little to furthering photographic art. Maybe I need to just ignor threads that deviate from advancing my knowledge of the art form.

Happy shooting.

D White
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2015, 03:27:20 am »

Although the persuit of photographic art requires degrees of technical knowledge, in my opinion many threads end up focusing on minutiae and almost zealous dogma that ultimately contribute little to furthering photographic art. Maybe I need to just ignor threads that deviate from advancing my knowledge of the art form.

David,

I fully agree with you.

To me there are 2, somewhat related, but very different topics. One is photography and the other one is equipment.

Happy shooting as well!

Cheers,
Bernard

synn

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2015, 03:42:14 am »

I would just like to add that "Dr. D. White" is probably the best name a dentist could ever have. It's all the marketing you ever need!

(No sarcasm intended, just to be safe).
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #78 on: September 16, 2015, 01:15:42 am »

Hi Bill,

I would say that the paper you quote is a bit dated. A lot has happened in sensel design, making the fill factor larger.

The analysis probably still applies but the coefficients may have been changing.

Best regards
Erik



As Bart and others have pointed out in these threads, oversampling does have its benefits, but there is such a thing as an optimal pixel size as discussed in this link:

Stanford paper:
 "For a typical O.35p CMOS technology the optimal pixel size is found to be approximately 6.5,am at fill factor of 30%. It is shown that the optimal pixel size scales with technology, but at slower rate than the technology itself."


Unless Canon were to develop a whole new sensor technology rather than tweaking current designs, I would not be interested in their 120 MP chip.

Regards,

Bill
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bjanes

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Re: Canon announces 120MP SLR, 8K (35Mp) 60fps cine cam.
« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2015, 09:56:49 am »

I guess that would be an "optimal pixel size for a given process technology", not "an optimal pixel size". As process tech change over time (and over manufacturers strategies), the "optimal pixel size" would also change.

"For a typical O.35p CMOS technology the optimal pixel size is found to be approximately 6.5,am at fill factor of 30%. It is shown that the optimal pixel size scales with technology, but at slower rate than the technology itself."

That optimal pixel size changes with technology was an integral premise of the Stanford paper that I referenced so there was no need to reiterate that fact. Changes in lens design and sensor technology would be necessary for a 120 MP 135 sensor to be practical.

Bill
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