Paul Craig Roberts: "America Is A Gulag"

[hjulenissen]

I don't think Europe have any more problems with immigrants than America - the difference is that the US is big enough that immigrants can easily be separated from people who don't like them. Though I am not sure what 'lessons' you think Europe can learn from US.

Northern European countries generally seems to have a growing population of non-western immigrants where a significant percentage fail to get a job, fail to learn the language and (in a few cases) show open hostility against the nation that has allowed them (or their parents) entry. The problem seems to be widespread acknowledged, but the cause (and possible solution) is of course politically divided between "left" and "right".

My impression is that the large, sustained flow of immigrants into the US has forced the nation into a different pattern. But perhaps my understanding of the US is as flawed as many americans understanding of Scandinavia.  

I think Sweden (in fact any of the Scandinavian countries) is unusual in the population being relatively small. It is well known that as societies get larger, social structures tend to break down and I believe this happens at national level as well.

Agreed.

In smaller societies it is more likely that the population will have a coherence in thinking that makes it easier to engender a national identity; they will tend towards an understanding and an appreciation of the 'common good' and more likely to appreciate the spirit of the laws as much as the letter of the laws. In turn this will tend towards greater tolerance.

More than being just "small" (in terms of headcount), Norway have historically been remarkeably homogenous. I.e. people have had similar religion, similar education, they even married people from "the neighbor town". This leads to some degree of transparency, but also to fear of the unknown (the opposite of tolerance).

Some speculate that when your neighbours know you (and your family), having a generous public social welfare system works because of social pressure (anyone playing the system would face social consequences). When people start moving into large cities and culture becomes more fragmented, keeping the old system may be challenging.

-h

[mezzoduomo]

I don't think Europe have any more problems with immigrants than America - the difference is that the US is big enough that immigrants can easily be separated from people who don't like them.
 

I wonder what this is in reference to? Immigrants to the US and to Europe seem to keep to themselves for a time (ghettoes?) and ultimately assimilate. Irish, Germans, Italians, Puerto Ricans, etc....all took some time to in America to break out of their isolation. There was ample prejudice against them all.

I think objective analysis would show that generations of immigrants have had a comparatively easy time assimilating into the fabric of the US. Are there no Muslim enclaves in France? Yes, just as there are Mexican enclaves in California and Arizona. I visited one last week and took the picture attached here. There are economic barriers around Guadalupe, but no fences. The Mexican-Americans of Guadalupe have significant, proven economic opportunity, in this state and across America. Prejudice remains, but time is not on its side.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Nice shot, Jeff.

To inject a bit more photography into the thread, a classic Americana:

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Now you respond and call me a socialist / commie 

When I left my commies, I never expected to encounter so many of them here

[AlterEgo]

But I always though socialism was about who owns means of production not who wants to go silly with wage claims.

well, things evolve... nowadays you do not need to treat this "ownership" quite literally... the real socialism is about having certain group of people who organize to take certain control for personal gain using non market methods... be that party membership or specifics of teachers employment here or a class of CEOs, etc, etc.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

It is interesting to compare Scandinavia to the US. We share a common popular culture, a common religious background, and a significant number of US citizens can trace their origins back to scandinavians.

According to this source, the US have 756 people in jail per 100.000. Norway and Denmark have 94/87. That is about 8.4x:
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fengsel#Befolkningsstatistikk

In Norway, about 0.71 people were killed (in 2006) per 100.000, while in the US the corresponding number was 5,62. That is 7.9x. The link says that comparing figures between countries is error-prone, but that Norway seems to have one of the lowest rates in the world.
https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drap
...

Interesting indeed.

However, it is even more interesting to compare states in the U.S. that do share more with Norway than the U.S. as a whole. Minnesota, for instance, that has a large Scandinavian population, or states that are similar in size or have similarly homogenous and/or non-urban population. The difference is not 8x any more, but between 2x and 3x:

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... But I always though socialism was about who owns means of production...

It is also a state of mind. One where people expect the government to solve most of their problems.

[spidermike]

well, things evolve... nowadays you do not need to treat this "ownership" quite literally... the real socialism is about having certain group of people who organize to take certain control for personal gain using non market methods... be that party membership or specifics of teachers employment here or a class of CEOs, etc, etc.

That's a new one on me.
Any references to that? It would be interesting to find out more.

[spidermike]

It is also a state of mind. One where people expect the government to solve most of their problems.

The difference between socialised welfare and socialism. A wonderful conflation of two different terms favoured by Fox News and the big healthcare providers to play on the innate American distrust (almost fear) of anything that can be labelled with a tag indicative of communism and the nasty boogeyman that lives in the evil land of R-U-S-S-I-A (say it quietly lest it actually exists and they hear you calling them).
Large swathes of Americans look on it as tantamount to selling out, in Europe we look on it as supporting the most vulnerable because that is what societies do.

One where people expect the government to solve most of their problems.

Personally I look on many of those as lazy **** who should apply a dose of common sense, and get off their backsides.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... population density and US by its sheer size geographically as well as population. As a result you could introduce basically the same laws and systems and the way they are enacted can differ widely...

For instance, California vs. Texas:

P.S. The Texas part is a true story, btw

[spidermike]

For instance, California vs. Texas:

P.S. The Texas part is a true story, btw

What can we draw from this?

Anomaly: And yet America insists on housing criminals at the taxpayer's expense. Europe try and rehabilitate them which helps reduce the burden on the state.



Or :
California = Europe, Texas = good ol' US of A
Coyote = disadvantaged person doing what they can to feed themselves 

[RSL]

For instance, California vs. Texas:

P.S. The Texas part is a true story, btw

ROTFL! Thanks, Slobodan. That about sums it up. And it keeps getting worse.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... which helps reduce the burden on the state...

California = Europe...

You missed the part that California is broke.

[spidermike]

I know its broke and there are so many possible reasons depending on your political preference...

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... there are so many possible reasons...

Not really... just two: either too little revenue or too much expenses. I think the anecdote above explains which one. A lot of businesses (and people) are already moving from CA to TX.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

A cautionary tale for all the socialists out there (and here):

Seattle CEO Who Set Firm's Minimum Wage to $70G Says He Has Hit Hard Times

Which very much reminds me of the following anecdote (pilfered from the Internet):

An economics professor said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little ...

The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder to succeed the greater the reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.

[RSL]

Not really... just two: either too little revenue or too much expenses. I think the anecdote above explains which one. A lot of businesses (and people) are already moving from CA to TX.

Unfortunately they've been moving to Colorado too, Slobodan, we call it "Californicating Colorado."

I know its broke and there are so many possible reasons. . .

Actually there's just one reason: It's called Socialism. You'd think that by now people would have learned what Socialism does to any economy, but you'd be wrong.

[spidermike]

Not really... just two: either too little revenue or too much expenses. I think the anecdote above explains which one. A lot of businesses (and people) are already moving from CA to TX.

So nothing to do with the generous tax breaks?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-samuels/why-california-is-broke-a_b_846143.html

So yes, they are spending more than is coming into the coffers but that also depends on how far you fill the coffers. As ever your political viewpoint will govern how you see the priorities.

[spidermike]

A cautionary tale for all the socialists out there (and here):

Seattle CEO Who Set Firm's Minimum Wage to $70G Says He Has Hit Hard Times

Which very much reminds me of the following anecdote (pilfered from the Internet):

Oh, boy. Poor business management is now a definition of socialism?
 
So what are your ideas about people wanting to help others as a definition of socialism? It brings to mind Rockerfeller whose foundation aims to "Improve the well-being of humanity around the world". And Bill Gates and a heap of other benefactors. 


By the way, a nice little anecdote which is more about due recognition than anything to do with socialism, but to base an economic theory on a fabricated story is specious to say the least.

[spidermike]

Actually there's just one reason: It's called Socialism. You'd think that by now people would have learned what Socialism does to any economy, but you'd be wrong.

Application of socialism without any sense of reality has failed for precisely the same reason that application of capitalism without any sense of reality has failed. By the latter I mean all this 'light touch regulation' of banks etc. And that reason is human nature - no matter what the economic or political system invoked, someone will always twist it to their own advantage often with the view of **** the rest of you. You always need rules in place to stop that happening.


So where do you draw the line in your definition of socialism?
Federal or State funding for schools? The army? CIA? Roads? Social security (I hope to god you never need it)? Polio vaccination?

And of course business subsidies - are they 'socialist'?