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Author Topic: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?  (Read 23891 times)

DeanChriss

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2015, 01:40:19 pm »

I confess to having ANC turned off at the moment, but I'm not sure it's the right thing to do. I had it turned on for a couple years and didn't have to deal with the nozzle check and manual cleaning routine. I've been happy enough with either setting though I think ANC sometimes occasionally goes overboard with ink usage.

ANC is able to detect whether any nozzles are not firing ink, performs the cleaning function if any nozzles are missing, and repeats. I think it goes through this three times and if some nozzles are still not firing it gives an error message. It is not simply assuming everything is OK after a cleaning. I read that this is done by electrically charging the ink droplets and measuring the charge on the fired ink. It is said to be accurate enough to detect a single missing nozzle.
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jerryw

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2015, 01:48:15 pm »

One of my first tasks when I took possession of the 9900 in April2010 was to turn ANC off.  ...  OK, somewhat off topic, but just making the point that I do not understand how anyone would simply assume that all nozzles are firing properly before starting a print session.  A totally foreign approach to me, but of course I suppose I might also be considered a bit of a throw back in this case.  Hey, works  for me.

Personally, I would not do this - i.e., I would not start a print session without a nozzle check.

Somehow you seem to have inferred that some would not nozzle-check-at-start-of-print-session if one had turned ANC on - no, not the case!  I plan to turn it on simply to lessen the probability of a nozzle clog GIVEN THAT I only print intermittently.  Reason: it will  push a little ink through at times that I wouldn't, thus hopefully lowering (but not eliminating) the probability of a clog.

If I was printing every day, I wouldn't turn this on - I wouldn't see the point.
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jerryw

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2015, 01:57:38 pm »

I have had the auto nozzle check turned on since the start, but unfortunately this has not prevented printhead failures in my case.
(low volume, room: peak temp 88F, average temp 77F, min humidity 8%, avg humidity 50%, low dust) We may learn something if everyone shared environmental data along with their experience.
So, I'm not an Epson engineer, but it is highly probable that clogging is a function of several different factors and conditions - one of which, sure, may be environment.

I suppose its possible that, if all printing were done within perfect/ controlled environmental specs, there would be no clogging anywhere for anyone.

However, its just as possible that, even under perfect environmental conditions, some clogging would occur.

As such, I see no particular harm in using ANC (other than a bit more wasted ink).  And I can see a significant potential upside, for those of us that print intermittently (pushing a little ink through when I'm not there to do it for a while).

That said, I'll share my environmental conditions: ranges from 65-70F/ 55-65RH in summer to 60-70F/ 10-30RH in winter ; low dust in all seasons.
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DeanChriss

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2015, 02:24:11 pm »

...

And I can see a significant potential upside, for those of us that print intermittently (pushing a little ink through when I'm not there to do it for a while).

That said, I'll share my environmental conditions: ranges from 65-70F/ 55-65RH in summer to 60-70F/ 10-30RH in winter ; low dust in all seasons.

FYI, when you are not there and the printer is asleep or off, ANC does nothing. I'm not exactly sure what triggers ANC nozzle checks, but thy seem to happen at the start or end of a print, and/or when the printer is turned on. I suppose it could be based on elapsed time. Regardless, AFAIK the printer does not wake up and do them when no one is using it.

My environmental conditions are very similar to yours, but perhaps a couple degrees warmer in summer. FWIW, I have by far the fewest "clogs" in winter (for 6 consecutive winters) when it's colder and much less humid. Because of that I've always conjectured that temperature plays a bigger role than humidity.
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cybis

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2015, 02:35:35 pm »

FWIW, I have by far the fewest "clogs" in winter (for 6 consecutive winters) when it's colder and much less humid. Because of that I've always conjectured that temperature plays a bigger role than humidity.

I couldn't agree more. My experience exactly.
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jerryw

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2015, 02:52:18 pm »

FYI, when you are not there and the printer is asleep or off, ANC does nothing. I'm not exactly sure what triggers ANC nozzle checks, but thy seem to happen at the start or end of a print, and/or when the printer is turned on. I suppose it could be based on elapsed time. Regardless, AFAIK the printer does not wake up and do them when no one is using it.

Dean - are you sure about this?   If you are correct, then I would agree that it would not help folks like me that are intermittent printers (because it wouldn't run the nozzle check when I'm not there, and when I am there, I check manually nozzle-check at the start of each session anyway).

However, I would think that the term "periodic" would mean just that - periodic - and not be a function of the wake/ sleep state of the printer (perhaps a bad assumption on my part).  I just searched, and I wasn't able to find anything that told me if ANC will wake up during sleep and do its thing, or if it only does its thing when the printer is awake.  Does anyone know for sure?
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cybis

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2015, 02:59:35 pm »

Dean - are you sure about this?   If you are correct, then I would agree that it would not help folks like me that are intermittent printers (because it wouldn't run the nozzle check when I'm not there, and when I am there, I check manually nozzle-check at the start of each session anyway).

However, I would think that the term "periodic" would mean just that - periodic - and not be a function of the wake/ sleep state of the printer (perhaps a bad assumption on my part).  I just searched, and I wasn't able to find anything that told me if ANC will wake up during sleep and do its thing, or if it only does its thing when the printer is awake.  Does anyone know for sure?

The printer has no way to boot up with the (mechanical) switch in the off position. When leaving the printer on, I have never observed the printer performing an ANC on its own outside of a print job. 
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jerryw

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2015, 04:02:43 pm »

The printer has no way to boot up with the (mechanical) switch in the off position. When leaving the printer on, I have never observed the printer performing an ANC on its own outside of a print job. 

Ok, thanks for clarifying that it (apparently) won't do an auto-periodic-check when it is in sleep-state - not what I expected/ hoped-for... dang.  That might be a good firmware-update for the 7900/ 9900 - not that I expect any such thing from Epson.

(re: cold-off, yes, of course - I knew that; I was referring to sleep-state in the previous post.)
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Garnick

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2015, 04:05:08 pm »

Personally, I would not do this - i.e., I would not start a print session without a nozzle check.

Somehow you seem to have inferred that some would not nozzle-check-at-start-of-print-session if one had turned ANC on - no, not the case!  I plan to turn it on simply to lessen the probability of a nozzle clog GIVEN THAT I only print intermittently.  Reason: it will  push a little ink through at times that I wouldn't, thus hopefully lowering (but not eliminating) the probability of a clog.

If I was printing every day, I wouldn't turn this on - I wouldn't see the point.


I think it's rather widely accepted that usage is a good thing for these printers, so printing intermittently may very well be more of a contributing factor to nozzle "clogs" than any of the environmental factors we all try to adhere to.  I print 6 days a week.  Not that I print a large volume everyday, but there's always work coming in to be done and that helps keep the printer happy in my opinion.  And of course that helps keep me happy as well.  So the answer is definitely no, I have not and will not use ANC on my 9900.  I was not at all inferring that everyone using these printers would never think to run a nozzle check before starting a printing session, but it does appear that those who report massive unworkable "clogs" often seem somehow surprised by those who might suggest a nozzle check occasionally.  I've seen this sort of behavior exhibited here on many occasions and that's what I was basing my opinion on.  As far as no ANC is concerned I tend to take it a bit further.  I often switch the K inks.  To do so I always startup in Service Mode so that the printer won't run a cleaning cycle automatically following the switch.  After the switch I let the printer rest for about half an hour when possible and then run a nozzle check and clean cycle if necessary, although that's seldom the case.  Restart in Standard mode and another NC which is usually clean.  From there it's print time.  And again, your experience may vary, but my routine works very well in my conditions in the Great White North.  Just saying  :)

Gary  
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DeanChriss

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2015, 04:50:34 pm »

Dean - are you sure about this? 

In a little over 6.5 years I have never seen the printer wake up of its own accord and do anything, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
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jerryw

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #50 on: August 17, 2015, 05:30:46 pm »

In a little over 6.5 years I have never seen the printer wake up of its own accord and do anything, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Dean, Cybis - thanks for clarifying that ANC will not cause a printer in sleep-state to wake-up and run a nozzle-check.  That wasn't obvious.

As such, I'm unlikely to turn ANC on:
  • Not much advantage since I always nozzle-check and clean-if-necessary at print-session-start-time
  • So, seems like the only thing it would do would be to catch a clog that forms in the middle of a print-session, after I have performed my session-start-ritual
  • Based on my own experience with the 7900, clog formation in the middle of a session (after session-start-ritual) almost never happens

Cheers

Jerry
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deanwork

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2015, 06:53:19 pm »

I'm telling you, these capping stations are not fitting the heads correctly, and then they can't function in the pressurized way they need to, so your really dealing with ink starvation in the vast number of cases, I'm convinced.

But you don't see Decision One replacing the cleaning units nearly as often as you having them throwing up their hands and selling you new print heads. Guess that's what they've been taught how to do in those Epson training sessions they go to. Every now and then they will replace a cap station but not often from what I"ve been hearing. Do they ever tell people to moisten their cap station with distilled water before doing that? I'll bet only one in a thousand does.

I do think that if you put some water on your cap station at least once a week, and more often than that in dry environments a big portion of these complaints would be rectified. But you need to do it early before ink dries in the lines, dampers, and heads.

Of course they should have a decent cap station and wiper blade in a "pro" printer. That wiper blade is really a joke. And I don't buy the bs that if you don't print every single day and do huge production work then you should expect your printer to malfunction. That's crazy Epson talk.

john
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cybis

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2015, 07:58:29 pm »

I'm telling you, these capping stations are not fitting the heads correctly

But if this was the case, the symptom would tend to be missing nozzles affecting channel pairs, would it not? That hasn't been my experience.
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deanwork

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2015, 09:58:18 pm »

No, it could effect pairs, or effect any single nozzles, or multiple nozzles.I've had all of the above.

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cybis

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2015, 11:46:30 pm »

No, it could effect pairs, or effect any single nozzles, or multiple nozzles.I've had all of the above.


I've difficulty imagining a mechanism by which a partial channel failure, which for me has been the most common occurrence,  is caused by a failure of the capping station to fit the head properly. Say the capping station is not air tight around the C/M channels. All the nozzles in the C and M channels will be exposed to the same air environment and the exact same lack of suction during cleaning, uniformly.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #55 on: August 19, 2015, 05:55:53 am »

I've difficulty imagining a mechanism by which a partial channel failure, which for me has been the most common occurrence,  is caused by a failure of the capping station to fit the head properly. Say the capping station is not air tight around the C/M channels. All the nozzles in the C and M channels will be exposed to the same air environment and the exact same lack of suction during cleaning, uniformly.

Think of some paper lint at one point on the surrounding elastomer seal ring. When in rest this could happen; ink repelling first in the nozzles nearby as no static vacuum remains, dryer air nearby so lower humidity, drying in of the sponges and possibly even air getting into those nozzles, all depending on time. The paper lint also getting a better bond in time. With cleaning and the waste pump active there would be a lower dynamic vacuum at that point which would be less able to clear those local issues, more (dry) air getting in even. Heavy cleaning could then also bring ink from one channel into another due to that dynamic vacuum difference and some ink channels delivering way more ink than the affected channels (though I assume this usually is caused by differences in damper throughput due to debris there). Good, overdone, wiper(s) construction could solve this paper lint issue somewhat. There will always be that difference of experience between shops that mainly print RC papers with low dust and shops that pull all kinds of art, canvas, cotton, qualities through their printers and have no vacuum cleaner ready next to that printer.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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deanwork

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2015, 09:35:35 am »

That is a very good point about paper dust. I would imagine that those who use rc papers almost exclusively would have more reliability. But if not, that would discount that dust theory.

Although I use the Canson matte papers almost exclusively with this printer, even they can cause dust particles flying around near the head when the paper is cut. It is probably a good idea to have a can of compressed air handy at all times and use it after each session. I doubt very few of us do that, along with keeping the cap station moist.

We shouldn't have to be doing all this, but it might be prudent.

Ernst, do you have any idea why we never ran into these kinds of issues with the Epson 10k that you and I used for many years?
Was it better cap station, better heads, better wiper blade, better pressurized cart design? Remember we never even had to empty our waste tank in all those years. I never even had to do nozzle checks. It was always clear.

john
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2015, 10:25:37 am »

Epson 10000. Six channel head, three wipers running across so not over the total length, each wiping the nozzles of two channels and nowhere wiping a channel color over another channel color. In the x900 models one wiper runs over the entire 10 channel nozzles surface.

On the pressurising system; the 10000 had just behind the cartridge slots 6 electric valves on the ink channels, by that there was no need for the backflow blocking valves in the carts but they were still used (not on hacked carts :-) probably just to discourage refilling. I wonder if the electric valves are still present in the models after the 10000.  I do no think a cartridge backflow blocking valve is entirely tight in time for a water column of say 20 cm pressure. When on power a leaking air membrane in one of the carts could give a low pressure error, how fine tuned that was I do not know. The last is still used on the x900 models, I believe the 11880 has three air pumps, the x900 might have too.

The ink buffers and dampers system was integrated in the 10000 head, both probably bigger than in the models before and after it that separate the dampers from the heads. At one hand you could not replace dampers but on the other hand they were aimed at a longer life. For all pressurised systems including other brands; at the nozzle level I do not expect any extra pressure in the supplied ink but maybe 1-3 cm water column gravity of the ink buffer at the head. The Epson damper membrane, the HP butterfly valve, will even out ink pressure to the local air pressure and that system + sensors will control the ink buffer content. It could be that Epson has less buffer capacity than the HP heads have and that the supply tubes interfere more on the ink buffer stability. I can hardly believe that it would be done that stupidly.

The 10000 still had a 180 nozzles per inch head, we are now on 360 for most of the Epsons discussed here. It is getting more critical. My vote goes to the wiper systems making the main difference between the printer models. On the HPs there is no rubber spared to get it right, has to wipe more than 1000 nozzles per channel/inch on heads like. The Canon doubles that.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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cybis

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Re: Would you buy Epson 7900/9900 over again?
« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2015, 12:20:38 pm »

Think of some paper lint at one point on the surrounding elastomer seal ring. When in rest this could happen; ink repelling first in the nozzles nearby as no static vacuum remains, dryer air nearby so lower humidity, drying in of the sponges and possibly even air getting into those nozzles, all depending on time.

I'm sorry but that doesn't sound plausible to me. If the seal is broken anywhere, the pressure and humidity to which to nozzles will be exposed will be the same for the entire pair. I can't see how the nozzles near the piece of debris would be affected more. I suppose they could be exposed to a sort of air draft near the breach but that seems far fetched to me.
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