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Author Topic: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster  (Read 14090 times)

jerryw

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Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« on: August 05, 2015, 12:17:59 pm »

I have an Epson 7900 that I have been using for a few years now.  I use Ultra Premium Luster (260) most of the time.

I recently decided to do a few test prints with Exhibition Fiber (13x19 sheets), so I printed a couple of D800 landscape images on both papers (from LR 6.1).

I confess my eyes aren't what they used to be, but I really couldn't see any difference worth noting.

Question: have any of you run this same experiment and, if so, what sort of differences do your eyes see, if any?  (Maybe I am going blind...)

Thanks

Jerry
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Jager

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2015, 01:31:43 pm »

Well, they both have a similar luster-type finish, so assuming proper profiles for each, they're going to look very much the same. 

They're very different types of paper, of course, with the EEF being much heavier and quite a bit brighter.  The tactile qualities are very different.  But with that similar finish, the actual image area is a pretty close match.  Having printed on both, I can confirm that.

Paul2660

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2015, 01:53:12 pm »

The finish on Exhibition Luster to me is a bit more grainy than the Luster on Epson 260W.  But the paper also seems to suffer just a bit less from bronzing issues.

However, the Exhibition Luster is a fibre based paper, so you will not out-gas to the front of the print and onto the glass as any RC paper will like Epson Luster 260W. 

The only issue I have with any RC paper is the outgassing issue which if you frame under glass, will cause you problems over time. 

Paul

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DeanChriss

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2015, 01:54:04 pm »

The paper surface textures look very different to me. EEF has a more random and IMO nicer texture, not to mention being heavier. Luster has a more regular surface with more specular highlights from the bumps if you look at it very closely. I believe EEF has a wider color gamut also, but you'd have to check that.
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PeterAit

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2015, 05:28:02 pm »

Premium Luster 260 is my "everyday" paper for my 7900. It makes very nice prints and is not expensive. Ex Fiber is what I consider a "premium" paper, it is quite a bit more expensive IIRC. I use it for display prints once the image printed on the 260 has passed muster. I find it a bit more vibrant, with deeper colors and darker blacks without quite so much "shine" to the surface. Subtle differences, to be sure, but they are visible to me.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2015, 06:27:02 pm »

Premium Luster 260 is my "everyday" paper for my 7900. It makes very nice prints and is not expensive. Ex Fiber is what I consider a "premium" paper, it is quite a bit more expensive IIRC. I use it for display prints once the image printed on the 260 has passed muster. I find it a bit more vibrant, with deeper colors and darker blacks without quite so much "shine" to the surface. Subtle differences, to be sure, but they are visible to me.
+1.  Exactly my method.

However, I will admit I'm concerned with the OBA's in EEF and lately have begun looking for a similar alternative.
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MHMG

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2015, 08:23:13 pm »

+1.  Exactly my method.

However, I will admit I'm concerned with the OBA's in EEF and lately have begun looking for a similar alternative.

Where the appearance of image color and tone qualities on long term display matters, both of these papers need to be avoided. Both have serious light-induced media discoloration issues that go well beyond the simple loss of OBA fluorescence as the OBAs fade over time.

The word "archival" is a very loosely used word in the industry and has no standardized technical definition at this time, but even when applying very liberal allowances for its meaning, neither paper deserves to be mentioned in context with the term "archival".

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 08:37:59 pm by MHMG »
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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2015, 09:35:27 pm »

The paper surface textures look very different to me. EEF has a more random and IMO nicer texture, not to mention being heavier. Luster has a more regular surface with more specular highlights from the bumps if you look at it very closely. I believe EEF has a wider color gamut also, but you'd have to check that.
Yes, I agree re: the texture, I observed this as well.  What I cannot see (perhaps I should have been a bit more specific in my intro) is any empirical/ visible improvement in gamut.
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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2015, 09:37:06 pm »

However, the Exhibition Luster is a fibre based paper, so you will not out-gas to the front of the print and onto the glass as any RC paper will like Epson Luster 260W. 

The only issue I have with any RC paper is the outgassing issue which if you frame under glass, will cause you problems over time. 

Paul
Interesting... a point I did not know & had not considered.  Thanks for the comment.
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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2015, 09:39:54 pm »

Ex Fiber ... I find it a bit more vibrant, with deeper colors and darker blacks without quite so much "shine" to the surface. Subtle differences, to be sure, but they are visible to me.

Perhaps I just need to do more prints and look harder.  But, so far, I can't see more vibrance and darker blacks.  Again... maybe its my aging eyes...
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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2015, 09:48:40 pm »

Where the appearance of image color and tone qualities on long term display matters, both of these papers need to be avoided. Both have serious light-induced media discoloration issues that go well beyond the simple loss of OBA fluorescence as the OBAs fade over time.

The word "archival" is a very loosely used word in the industry and has no standardized technical definition at this time, but even when applying very liberal allowances for its meaning, neither paper deserves to be mentioned in context with the term "archival".

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

There is a lot of stuff to wade through on your web site... would you be kind enough to supply a more specific link that provides the data behind your assertion?  (Not a challenge - just looking for info - thanks for the reply.)
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2015, 11:35:49 pm »

There is a lot of stuff to wade through on your web site... would you be kind enough to supply a more specific link that provides the data behind your assertion?  (Not a challenge - just looking for info - thanks for the reply.)
click the link in his signature.  lots of test info.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:32:41 am by Wayne Fox »
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2015, 11:44:17 pm »

Where the appearance of image color and tone qualities on long term display matters, both of these papers need to be avoided. Both have serious light-induced media discoloration issues that go well beyond the simple loss of OBA fluorescence as the OBAs fade over time.
agreed. the Luster is used only to make sure the print is perfect before printing upon more the expensive EEF, never for final product.

Perhaps I just need to do more prints and look harder.  But, so far, I can't see more vibrance and darker blacks.  Again... maybe its my aging eyes...
I have made custom profiles using 4000 patch targets on an Isis, and while the epson provided profiles show differences between the two papers, with my profiles I get pretty much identical results. I'm comfortable using the luster for perfecting the file, knowing when moving to EEF I won't have to do any further tweaking because of the paper types.

to me the difference is in the surface characteristics, the EEF has a more subtle pebble texture, and a very nice sheen.  Very reminiscent of some of the old B&W papers.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2015, 04:21:03 am »

There is a lot of stuff to wade through on your web site... would you be kind enough to supply a more specific link that provides the data behind your assertion?  (Not a challenge - just looking for info - thanks for the reply.)

Just filter on Exhibition in the test results after you enlist.
No need to worry about the inks used in the tests, the paper is the worst component in the tests.
Image of search attached.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2015, 09:17:29 am »

Where the appearance of image color and tone qualities on long term display matters, both of these papers need to be avoided. Both have serious light-induced media discoloration issues that go well beyond the simple loss of OBA fluorescence as the OBAs fade over time.

agreed. the Luster is used only to make sure the print is perfect before printing upon more the expensive EEF, never for final product.
Hi Wayne - Your comment on MHMG's comment seems a bit inconsistent in that: You appear to agree with his assertion on Luster, and then go on to say you do all your exhibition prints on Fiber, even though Mark made the same comment about Fiber as he did about Luster.  If I didn't misread you, can you please clarify?  Thanks.

I have made custom profiles using 4000 patch targets on an Isis, and while the epson provided profiles show differences between the two papers, with my profiles I get pretty much identical results. I'm comfortable using the luster for perfecting the file, knowing when moving to EEF I won't have to do any further tweaking because of the paper types.  To me the difference is in the surface characteristics, the EEF has a more subtle pebble texture, and a very nice sheen.  Very reminiscent of some of the old B&W papers.

This matches what my aging eyes are seeing.  So, at least I know I am not completely and totally alone in the world. :)  (While acknowledging that some here seem to see diffs other than texture.)
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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2015, 09:19:06 am »

Just filter on Exhibition in the test results after you enlist.
No need to worry about the inks used in the tests, the paper is the worst component in the tests.
Image of search attached.

Thanks - that's the info I was looking for.
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MHMG

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2015, 11:16:02 am »

There is a lot of stuff to wade through on your web site... would you be kind enough to supply a more specific link that provides the data behind your assertion?  (Not a challenge - just looking for info - thanks for the reply.)

See the attached graphs which show white point stability for both papers. That's some of the data behind my assertion, but these graphs probably call for a little explanation as well, so here goes:

Re: EEF -  If we measure the CIELAB b* value (which tracks the blue-yellow component of the color ) then UV included versus UV excluded measurements can give us insight into the initial flourescence of the media and thus indirectly how much OBA is present. Exhibition fiber has a very high initial fluorescence factor with ∆b* = 6.7 for the UVinc-UVexc measurements (i.e, it's a very cool-white paper to begin with due to high OBA content). When that OBA totally burns out, we should expect to see the whitepoint stability graph leveling out at around 6.7 units of change in the ∆b value. But EEF keeps going higher as you can see in the plot which means it's yellowing more than we can explain merely by loss of fluorescence. Better papers will have lesser amounts or even no OBA, and will stay within 1 or 2 b* units of their initial value over the entire length of the test.

re: EPPL - the Epson Premium Luster paper has a different but still OBA related yellowing problem that's harder to track in accelerated light fade tests and thus has gone largely under reported in the published literature (including what I've published to date, sorry to say, but I'm working on fixing this accelerated testing issue). If you look at the whitepoint stability graph for EPPL, its ∆b* value is more erratic as the testing proceeded, but again shows very high amounts of yellowing at the end of the test which cannot be explained by mere loss of OBA fluorescence. Additional staining is occurring and it needs a dark storage or low intensity illumination condition added to the testing cycle in order to bring about the additional stain. The sample I have graphed here was allowed to stay in dark storage for several months after the 140Mlux hour exposure, and that amount of time was enough to induce the spike in the b* value you see at that point on the graph. Likewise, for the smaller bumps in the plot at the 50 and 90 Mlux hour marks. In those instances, the sample was not measured immediately after the exposure dose interval was completed. The dark storage time allowed more stain to grow in the sample, and subsequent high intensity illumination was able to bleach that stain back somewhat so the b* value went down again in successive measurements, hence the erratic nature of this plot.  This is a complex phenomenon I have taken to calling the LILIS effect (stands for low intensity light induced staining), but suffice to say that it will definitely occur in a more steady manner with this product under real world display conditions over time because most display conditions are typically not intense enough to suppress the yellowing with light bleaching that counteracts this stain growth in higher intensity accelerated light fade tests. BTW, I'm now detecting this LILIS problem with essentially all of today's popular RC photo papers, not just Epson RC paper and not just RC inkjet media, either.  That said, the Epson RC papers do tend to exhibit the problem more severely than other RC media, and that indicates there is much room for improvement of RC media if the manufacturers begin to pay attention to this problem.  Anyway, it's part of my ongoing research. I don't have all the answers yet, but I'm working on ways to better characterize the problem so that printmakers who care about print longevity can make more informed choices.

lastly, if you want to check out the full reports for these samples, they are ID #s 210 and 225 in the AaI&A database. You need to log in to the AaI&A website to be able to download the full reports, but registration is free.

best,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


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jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2015, 11:42:05 am »

Geez, Mark, thanks for all the detail.  I don't have time to read it at the moment, but I surely will.  Thanks!
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Jager

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2015, 12:49:54 pm »

Not to derail Jerry's thread, but since it affects both papers in the question he raised, I'll throw it out...

Mark McCormick-Goodhart (MHMG), to my knowledge you were the first researcher to identify the LILIS phenomenon; and are still the only one investigating its effects.  Between that research and your more general testing of inkjet papers and inks - a targeted testing that is far more relevant to serious photographic artists, IMHO, than the similar work that Wilhelm Institute does - we all owe you a huge round of thanks.  I wish the Smithsonian or Library of Congress would support your work with grant monies.

My question... in advance of the formal conclusions I expect you'll reach at some point with respect to LILIS, can you give us any kind of preliminary hint of which papers seem to avoid or better resist that effect?  If you're uncomfortable with that, can you perhaps at least share what your own personal favorite papers are today?

Thanks...

jerryw

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Re: Exhibition Fiber on Epson 7900 vs. UP Luster
« Reply #19 on: August 06, 2015, 01:08:17 pm »

Not to derail Jerry's thread, but since it affects both papers in the question he raised, I'll throw it out...

My question... in advance of the formal conclusions I expect you'll reach at some point with respect to LILIS, can you give us any kind of preliminary hint of which papers seem to avoid or better resist that effect?  If you're uncomfortable with that, can you perhaps at least share what your own personal favorite papers are today?

Hey, derail-away... I had the same question. :)
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