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Author Topic: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?  (Read 26057 times)

Ken Doo

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2015, 10:26:20 am »

What's to say that MFDB won't have IBIS at some point?

All the 35mm and smaller format images look flat to me.  I still prefer MF and LF images often even when they are not tack sharp



Tech cams are locked down on a tripod 99% of the time so no need for IBIS. But you just never know with a new large sensored MFDB attached to a body with some new camera technology. Not really sure what's in store for that upgradable Honeybee under the hood of the new XF.... IBIS of some sort would be really cool...

To me it has always been about the format. I'm not fond of the 2:3 ratio of 35mm sensors. But each has its place in my camera bag.

ken

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2015, 11:13:24 am »

Hi,

There are some reasons I don't think we will see IBIS

  • I would guess that IBIS is pretty intensive engineering task, and I don't think it would be worthwhile for the quite small MFD business
  • MFDBs are often quite separate from bodies. The new phase one camera has a lot of integration of course.
  • IBIS may add tolerances, which may be more negative than positive in the context MFD systems often are used.
  • It may make more sense to add IBIS for say Pentax or Leica than for Phase. Leica is perhaps often used handheld.

As a matter of fact, I wish I could buy the A7rII without IBIS and without stabilisation in the lenses. But again, that would be a tiny part of a small market.

Best regards
Erik

Tech cams are locked down on a tripod 99% of the time so no need for IBIS. But you just never know with a new large sensored MFDB attached to a body with some new camera technology. Not really sure what's in store for that upgradable Honeybee under the hood of the new XF.... IBIS of some sort would be really cool...

To me it has always been about the format. I'm not fond of the 2:3 ratio of 35mm sensors. But each has its place in my camera bag.

ken
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Ken R

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2015, 11:29:27 am »

The PhaseOne XF is the pinnacle of the Medium Format SLR evolution. Hasselblad might come out with another incremental update to their H system (same with leica) but It is safe to say that the XF is gonna be the last MF SLR system made from the ground up. The next one is going to be mirrorless and just retain backwards compatibility with SLR lenses via adapters. (kinda like what Sony did).

Who is going to come out with it first? Impossible to know but it might be Leica, Sony or even Fuji. Hasselblad is a long shot unless they partner with Fuji again for the design/build. 

Regarding the IBIS in MF. It might come after or with the new MF mirrorless system camera body.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2015, 03:06:34 pm »

Hi,

I hoped that Phase One would come out with a mirrorless camera. But, it lets you shoot from live view with LS lenses.

Interesting speculation on mirrorless MFD. It would make a lot of sense. But I would think the MFD market is quite a bit tricky, more about perception than reality in many senses. Also, any MFD vendor is dependent on raw support from one the big vendors. Phase One would not support another MFD system, Adobe would, but Adobe doesn't have a good stand in the MFD marketplace.

So, entering the MFD marketplace is a bit tricky. Who knows, innovation may come from Pentax and Leica, both are low cost vendors with a foot in the Adobe/DNG camp.

Best regards
Erik

The PhaseOne XF is the pinnacle of the Medium Format SLR evolution. Hasselblad might come out with another incremental update to their H system (same with leica) but It is safe to say that the XF is gonna be the last MF SLR system made from the ground up. The next one is going to be mirrorless and just retain backwards compatibility with SLR lenses via adapters. (kinda like what Sony did).

Who is going to come out with it first? Impossible to know but it might be Leica, Sony or even Fuji. Hasselblad is a long shot unless they partner with Fuji again for the design/build. 

Regarding the IBIS in MF. It might come after or with the new MF mirrorless system camera body.
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markymarkrb

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2015, 09:31:20 pm »

My guess is that Sony will be first to introduce mirrorless MF with a possible FUJI partnership releasing their respective cameras around the same time using the same sensor.  Fuji makes a great APS-C camera but I think they have realized they have limited themselves with the sensor size choice of the system wit the the new gen of Sony A cameras.  Fuji has a heritage in MF and having a APS-C line and MF line would suit them well.  However, I don't think Sony is in any hurry to let anyone put out a better camera than themselves anytime soon.  Where I could be wrong is that they in a way have already produced a MF sensor for other brands.  Now that these MF companies have had their way with that sensor, maybe we will see a MF camera from Sony shortly kind of like how we saw the A7R released quite a period later than the D800.
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ddolde

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2015, 09:39:47 pm »

I don't buy items to test them. There's no question a Credo 80 on a tripod (always)  will kick Sony's ass why bother I already know the answer


The credo will of course deliver more detailed files when everything is done perfectly.

In real world applications, I'd love to be able to compare the average detail in the files captured. I would think that the superior focusing abilities of the Sony (including eye detection, AF from the sensor,...) and its superior DR may result in better files.

You can try that yourself, buying one is a trivial cost compared to your Credo! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
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EricWHiss

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2015, 03:26:07 am »

The PhaseOne XF is the pinnacle of the Medium Format SLR evolution.

Uh, no.  The XF is only the pinnacle of the Phase/ DF evolution.  The Hy6 is still a better camera than the XF even with all the XF's computer power.  It's lighter, has more finder options, the AF is faster (80mm v 80mm on each), can shoot digital back or film backs, better ergonomics (you can't beat a physical slider switch with definite positions).  Yeah the XF has a WLF no but it can only spot meter with it fitted.  The full metering is only available with the 90 prism finder.   Am I the only one that thinks Phase could have done better? Sure it has a nice computer in it but…

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EricWHiss

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2015, 03:27:57 am »


To me it has always been about the format. I'm not fond of the 2:3 ratio of 35mm sensors. But each has its place in my camera bag.


I agree, I also find 3::2 quite restrictive having shot with 67, square and 4x5.
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amsp

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2015, 05:17:33 am »

Am I the only one that thinks Phase could have done better?

No, you're not alone.
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Kolor-Pikker

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2015, 05:35:00 am »

Since getting the 5DSr I am using the 645z a lot less....

It's that Sigma 24-35mm F2 y'see.
You wanted a wide zoom and went with the Sigma 24-35 instead of the Pentax 28-45 for the Z? Price difference aside, the latter has stabilization, a wider zoom range (22-35.5 effective) and completely bonkers image quality.

I'm sure the Sigma is a fine lens, but the Pentax is a friggen razor blade wide open, and that's just based on some RAWs I found on the net, which usually means it's not the best result that can be had.
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MoreOrLess

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2015, 07:37:19 am »

My guess is that Sony will be first to introduce mirrorless MF with a possible FUJI partnership releasing their respective cameras around the same time using the same sensor.  Fuji makes a great APS-C camera but I think they have realized they have limited themselves with the sensor size choice of the system wit the the new gen of Sony A cameras.  Fuji has a heritage in MF and having a APS-C line and MF line would suit them well.  However, I don't think Sony is in any hurry to let anyone put out a better camera than themselves anytime soon.  Where I could be wrong is that they in a way have already produced a MF sensor for other brands.  Now that these MF companies have had their way with that sensor, maybe we will see a MF camera from Sony shortly kind of like how we saw the A7R released quite a period later than the D800.

I would guess that a larger brand would need to be involved for Sony or anyone else to invest in creating a CMOS full 645 sized sensor. The problem with Fuji and Sony doing that to me seems to be that both are currently working hard to build there new mirrorless lens lineups, moving resources to MF might slow that down which would not be ideal.

I wouldn't totally rule out Canon or Nikon looking at a MF sensor if a full 645 CMOS sensor was around. If they do have interest in this market I wouldn't be surprised if the current smaller sizes aren't viewed as going far enough beyond their 35mm setups. Nikon perhaps seems a bit more likely to me as its not expanding into cine lenses the way Canon is.
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Bo Dez

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2015, 08:07:55 am »

IMO, there is no comparison between new generation high res small formats and Medium Format. Resolution by numbers is only one piece of the pie.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2015, 11:29:23 am »

Hi,

I wouldn't generalise, my own experience is with a P45+, obviously an older one, and 24 MP Sony. The real diference I see is resolution, where the P45 has a great pixel peeping advantage. With the print sizes I normally do, A2, I see no great difference.  But that may differ from case to case. I have an A7rII on order. So I will know better in a few days how well the P45+ and the Sony will match up. What is great with the Sony is that I can use it with a lot of interesting lenses, not least for tilt and shift. Canon T&S, Hasselblad lenses of which I have plenty, the excellent Yashica/Contax 35 PC and still be under the cabin weight limits on most flights.

Best regards
Erik

IMO, there is no comparison between new generation high res small formats and Medium Format. Resolution by numbers is only one piece of the pie.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2015, 11:57:01 am »

What's to say that MFDB won't have IBIS at some point?

All the 35mm and smaller format images look flat to me.  I still prefer MF and LF images often even when they are not tack sharp



In the following gallery there are pictures shot with a number of different DSLR's and also MF over time http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/Landscapes/Selected-Landscape-Gallery/
It should be easy without looking at the info button to see which ones are from which kind of camera, right? :)

Gigi

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2015, 12:25:32 pm »

With all due respect to the above posters, here's a different perspective: that in our discussion of the future of MFDB, we are standing on the wrong foot. Too often, the criteria used in such pondering is the "where is the DSLR-optimized technology?", and if/when/how that technology can or will  migrate to MFDB-based camera platforms or backs.

I'd suggest an alternate position: that MFDB-based work is really the electronic-era equivalent to LF work of years past and we should look at it in those terms. Its either equivalent to 4x5 or 8x10, depending on the back, sometimes with movements, sometimes without. But the thoughtfulness and the more profound results, the care in the discipline of the image, all harken back to LF work of the past 150 years, not the cel-phone snaps of the past 5 years.  

The addition of other technologies to MFDB that mimic the DSLR world is, IMHO, not essential to this work flow. If they come, perhaps they should be considered gravy. MFDB cannot, and probably (!) should not, compete on that front - it will lose that battle as its terms are set by smaller, lighter, mirrorless technology that, as Eronald points out, comes from cel phones, sold in the millions. MFDB can't garnish the investment heft to compete in that world.

Those of us who love MFDB and large format (I'd like to suggest we're cousins) should appreciate what we have, and work within that discipline.  We are better off accepting that, instead of regretting what it's not. Sure I'd like hand-held, low light, high ISO backs, but if they don't come out, or are too expensive, they are not essential to the work flow. Perhaps the wedding photographer who wants to shoot MF needs this, but lots of us work in a slower, more contemplative way.

Those with MFDB who don't see the difference with the smaller CMOS "instacameras" might simply be missing something here. Maybe the difference isn't so noticeable for all shots, but its there. Hey, there was a political campaign photographer who shot with 4x5 film and got wonderful results. Different, but still special. If they can, surely we can?  
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 06:23:51 pm by Gigi »
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torger

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2015, 12:37:24 pm »

I use the Linhof Techno and 50 megapixel CCD back with my Schneider Digitar lenses because I like the large format style of work, carefully set up tripod-mounted shots, lens movements etc. I'd love to have a CMOS live view, which I maybe will get eventually if the coming generations have fixed the crosstalk issues and don't cost too much. If they just fix the crosstalk issue I think I can live with the "tiny" 44x33 size. Meanwhile I'm collecting hipster points by using the ground glass.

Although absolute image quality is important to me, I'm not too worried about the 135 competition. The best 135s already exceeds my camera system in some aspects, but none that I'm really dependent on. If 135 just becomes too good and MFD becomes too expensive with too little value for me, which may be the case in five years, I just switch to 135 for my landscape work. I've used it before and I can use it again. Now when I'm becoming good at camera color profiling it's becoming easy for me to move between systems while keeping my personal look intact.

Personally I couldn't spot a look difference due to difference in format size, assuming it's a deep DoF shot like most landscape shots are. Sure I can see if lens movements have been used and such things, and from side effects I can identify the format sometimes. If I have to switch back to 135 in the future it's not the reduced size of the sensor I will miss the most though (I think it's only about resolving power I see no difference in look due to that the sensor is larger), but the more limited possibilities in camera movements. And that the camera doesn't look as cool.

Had I been a pro studio photographer using say Hasselblad there would have been very strong reasons to stay with the format regardless of competition, as I would know the system and the workflow, and I would probably already be dependent on the "Hassy look" in terms of color which would be hard to reproduce in a different brand (almost no pro is using custom profiling for their mainline work). While I think it's quite easy to make current customers stay in the upgrade cycle, it seems to me that it must be harder to convince new photographers already used to some 135 system to move into MFD rather than getting the highest end 135.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 01:00:21 pm by torger »
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EricWHiss

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2015, 03:57:16 pm »

In the following gallery there are pictures shot with a number of different DSLR's and also MF over time http://www.hanskrusephotography.com/Landscapes/Selected-Landscape-Gallery/
It should be easy without looking at the info button to see which ones are from which kind of camera, right? :)

Yes, depending on how much post processing has been done and also the photographer.  I've seen your work before and its very nice.   I will add one point,  besides preferring the more square ratios, and the look of the MF and LF images which appear to have more life to them (to me), I also just enjoy working with the larger viewfinders of MF cameras and particularly my Rolleiflex.  The H5 and Leica S also have nice viewfinders.  I find it really useful for composition.   I also like the ergonomics of my Hy6 and the leaf shutters and high sync speeds help me in studio hand held.   I have tried composing with the live view on the DLSR's and MFT cameras but this always results in an awkward hand position.   So in summary on top of the look, I also just find I do better and enjoy more shooting with my MF cameras.   YMMV
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2015, 04:58:07 pm »

Yes, depending on how much post processing has been done and also the photographer.  I've seen your work before and its very nice.   I will add one point,  besides preferring the more square ratios, and the look of the MF and LF images which appear to have more life to them (to me), I also just enjoy working with the larger viewfinders of MF cameras and particularly my Rolleiflex.  The H5 and Leica S also have nice viewfinders.  I find it really useful for composition.   I also like the ergonomics of my Hy6 and the leaf shutters and high sync speeds help me in studio hand held.   I have tried composing with the live view on the DLSR's and MFT cameras but this always results in an awkward hand position.   So in summary on top of the look, I also just find I do better and enjoy more shooting with my MF cameras.   YMMV

Thanks :) Well, I thought you would not that easily spot which ones were the MF shots. The gallery has pictures shot with the following cameras: Canon 10D, 20D, 5D, 5D III, 1Ds III, Nikon D800E, D810 and Phase One IQ160. I liked the viewfinder on the Phase One DF+ camera, but almost equally as much on the D800E, D810, 1Ds III and 5D III. I never compose using live view. I compose using the OVF and then I shoot in live view to have the mirror up and minimise shutter shock on the D810 and the Canons. I shoot mostly on a tripod for carefull composition and the lower shutter speeds in early mornings and late evenings. I like the IQ og the IQ160 very much, but I did not like the DF and DF+ camera bodies. Now the Canon 5DsR challenges the IQ160 for IQ. Not completely but not that far off. And at much lower prices and a much better user experience.

andyptak

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2015, 06:09:05 pm »

I shoot with a Sony A7r and Mamiya with both P25 and P45+ backs.

I use the Sony a lot because it's just so convenient and easy to use. However, I find the resulting file to be a bit harsh in comparison to the light sweet and airy feel of the Phase files. I'm not a pixel peeper but the MF has an intangible quality that escapes the Sony.

Although it's considered ancient now, the P25 and it's fat pixels give such a lovely rendition that I will take any day above the Sony. Technically inferior sure, but so what. It looks lovely.

Guess I use the Sony because I'm lazy and often pressed for time.

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kers

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Re: Will MF resolution win over 35mm stabilisation?
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2015, 06:25:51 pm »

I agree, I also find 3::2 quite restrictive having shot with 67, square and 4x5.

you can cut of 2/3 tot 3/4  as you could do with a square format like the film medium format... it is not that difficult.
Nikon proposes a 2/3 a 4/5  a DX - enough to choose from... nothing new.

More on topic: i see an evolution is going on in the sense everybody can use a good camera since the costs of it gets lower and lower...
This discussion again shows the quality differences are small and will get smaller between the expensive medium format camera's and the cheaper 35mm ones.
So if every photographer can start working with the right equipment- it is up tot the photographer to make the difference...
Of course it has always been that way, but now more than ever.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 06:40:43 pm by kers »
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