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Author Topic: The end of profiling?  (Read 22688 times)

amolitor

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2015, 08:09:21 pm »

Sure!
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digitaldog

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2015, 08:11:02 pm »

> The most important book on photography written in the last 123 years
That is an amazing achievement, Andrew! Can I have a pdf copy for a review please?
I'm shocked Michael hasn't provided a review here considering this achievement. Or did I miss it?
Maybe you can provide a review for LuLa Iliah.
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Iliah

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2015, 08:13:06 pm »

I'm shocked Michael hasn't provided a review here considering this achievement. Or did I miss it?
Maybe you can provide a review for LuLa Iliah.
I will do that, given I will have the pdf. I do not have Kindle, so the link in the Andrew's signature does not help. I will keep folks here updated.

Upd. PDF received
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 08:41:55 pm by Iliah »
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amolitor

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2015, 10:33:53 pm »

Without going in to details, I'd like to report that Iliah surprised me with his kindness and openness. I am confident that whatever he reports will be honest and worthwhile. Yes, even if negative. Arguably more useful in that case.
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Alan Klein

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2015, 11:28:21 pm »

Curious how a printer handles out-of-the camera jpegs?    (assume the white balance is correct)

Schewe

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #45 on: July 29, 2015, 12:08:45 am »

Clipping, in my experience, not compressing, as the conversions between matrix profiles are handled in the system using relative colorimetric intent.

The other short coming doing the Printer Manages Color is the issue of the bit depth of the color transform. In Photoshop (using the Adobe CMM) and Lightroom (it only uses the Adobe CMM) the working space to output profile is done in 20 bit precision. In the Apple CMM it's 16 bit and I believe Windows is the same. So, there are actually double transforms happening, document to SRGB or Adobe RGB in 16 bit then from that profile another color transform to arrive at the printer color. So, I expect Photoshop Manages Color to end up with a more precise result with much less chance of banding...

The only time I've ever heard of a Printer Manages Color being better than use color managed is with certain non-pro printers from Canon and certain entry level Epson printers like the PictureMate and the all in one printer/scanner/fax machines.
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Iliah

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2015, 10:48:24 am »

The other short coming doing the Printer Manages Color is the issue of the bit depth of the color transform. In Photoshop (using the Adobe CMM) and Lightroom (it only uses the Adobe CMM) the working space to output profile is done in 20 bit precision. In the Apple CMM it's 16 bit and I believe Windows is the same. So, there are actually double transforms happening, document to SRGB or Adobe RGB in 16 bit then from that profile another color transform to arrive at the printer color. So, I expect Photoshop Manages Color to end up with a more precise result with much less chance of banding...

The only time I've ever heard of a Printer Manages Color being better than use color managed is with certain non-pro printers from Canon and certain entry level Epson printers like the PictureMate and the all in one printer/scanner/fax machines.

Yes, Jeff, double conversions tend to add more banding and noise in shadows than possible, and gamut transforms go unchecked totally. On top of that there is indeed the precision issue.

I think what Epson did was to open a path for more or less accurate and reliable colour and tone to the users who have no idea of proper colour management, or no means to it. First print comes out more or less agreeable.  To achieve this, they figured out the rather stable control of ink coverage and optimized conversion from "pseudo printer additive" to physical printer subtractive (including optimization for the use of light and heavy inks), so the changes in linearization are much less of an issue when it used to be, and the dynamic range of the print is effectively close to maximum the media and inks can handle, with more smoothness, more tones, less posterization. For those of us who use custom profiles those underlying improvements mean less kinks in LUTs, and more stable and more easily achieved results.
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digitaldog

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2015, 10:52:00 am »

FWIW, Dave Polaschek stated: "Picking "Printer Manages Colors" on Windows guarantees that your color data will be converted to sRGB."
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2015, 06:56:14 am »

FWIW, Dave Polaschek stated: "Picking "Printer Manages Colors" on Windows guarantees that your color data will be converted to sRGB."

I wonder about that. The Windows PS-3 driver of the HP Z3200-PS in printer CM mode has a selection menu that gives you a choice between sRGB, AdobeRGB, Colormatch and AppleRGB for RGB images and some CMYK spaces for CMYK files. The PCL-3 driver only sRGB and AdobeRGB. I do not think the driver will convert to any of these spaces first but has different LUTs to deal with images with the assigned spaces. The user then has to correlate the color space choice with the image assigned color space I think. Otherwise I do not understand the menu either, a proper driver recognition of the color space in the file could have been implanted and have things doen automatically. Anyway if only sRGB would get through the above choices become even weirder as that either corrupts the CM right away or the data gets two conversions on the way and a small space in between. I think HP avoids a color engine implant the way they designed the menu choices and Windows does not convert to sRGB on the fly.

Qimage Ultimate (that can not work with CMYK files and is Windows only) has three choices on color management:
* OFF - and QU will not do any CM but also strip the color space from the data it sends through to the driver. Good for target printing.
* Printer will do CM - and QU will not do any CM but keep the color space assigned to the data it sends to the driver.
* Qimage Ultimate CM on - and QU will do the CM and expect the driver setting to be on "Let application do CM" and expects the OS does not interfere either, Windows respects that approach as we know.
In the two first choices I see a conflict if the data gets sRGB assigned or is converted to sRGB by Windows. I have no reason to think it works like that.

There could be (desktop model) drivers with no other expectation than sRGB assigned or no space assigned files thrown at them and their driver CM based on that assumption. Not a Windows limitation but a simple driver CM.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

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December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 10:52:30 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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amolitor

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off topic!
« Reply #49 on: August 09, 2015, 06:48:22 pm »

Off Topic:

I sold two, yes, TWO, copies of my book today. It's madness, I tell you, madness. Hurry, before they run out!
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digitaldog

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Re: off topic!
« Reply #50 on: August 09, 2015, 06:59:01 pm »

Off Topic:
I sold two, yes, TWO, copies of my book today. It's madness, I tell you, madness. Hurry, before they run out!
Wow, two, yes TWO OT posts on the subject of color management. It is madness.  :-\
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paulinemyre

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2015, 05:41:09 pm »

Hi, i just bought the new epson sure color p600 printer and can't get good colour. I am printing greeting cards with photos that i created in Apple Pages software. Printed these for years with epson r2400 without any color problems but terrible rendering wit p600: reds are orange and prints very dark. Can someone help? And what are best settings to use ? Thanks, just joined this forum
Paulinemyre@ rogers.com
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Mark D Segal

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2015, 05:44:49 pm »

Hi, i just bought the new epson sure color p600 printer and can't get good colour. I am printing greeting cards with photos that i created in Apple Pages software. Printed these for years with epson r2400 without any color problems but terrible rendering wit p600: reds are orange and prints very dark. Can someone help? And what are best settings to use ? Thanks, just joined this forum
Paulinemyre@ rogers.com

The P600 should handle this just fine. You probably are having a colour management set-up issue, but impossible to advise without seeing a lot more detail about the media you are using and the colour management settings in your print application and the printer driver.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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paulinemyre

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Re: The end of profiling?
« Reply #53 on: August 20, 2015, 11:37:52 am »

Thanks for your reply. After trial and errors i was able to get accurate color with the epson p600. However now i cannot access the advanced black and white. I did it once but unable to do it again. Is this feature only accessible with photo black ink?. I am using photographic matte paper and matte black ink.
many thanks for your help
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