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Author Topic: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters  (Read 17556 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

DPReview has posted a sample test target shot with the Canon 5DsR and the Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 at f/5.6. This is about as sharp as it gets. Obviously this high resolution can put demosaicing in raw converters at test.

The attached part is a crop from the DPReview image. Check out the word rain, three lines from the bottom. Note that readability is best in the back over grey image, probably because this has lowest contrast. Lightroom 6 is at top, AccuRaw at the center and Capture One at bottom. Very clearly, Lightroom demosaic needs some work and I am very disappointed that demosaic has not been improved LR6.

Best regards
Erik
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2015, 03:47:06 am »

Hi,

DPReview has posted a sample test target shot with the Canon 5DsR and the Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 at f/5.6. This is about as sharp as it gets. Obviously this high resolution can put demosaicing in raw converters at test.

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the examples. It would have been nice if they had also shot with the 5DS to demonstrate the differences with an OLP filter.

Anyway, the differences do not come as a surprise, and are probably even more important for cameras without an OLPF or with an anti-aliasing cancellation filterstack, especially when high quality lenses are used near their optimum resolution. Although not from the 5DSR, Ive attached a few crops from the center of my Resolution target using three different Converters (Lightroom 5.7, RawTherapee 4.2.1, and Capture One 7.2.3) on the same Raw file from a Canon 1DS Mark III (with OLPF) with an EF-135mm f/2 L lens at f/5.6, and even there the differences are obvious.

These are from older versions of these Raw converters that I used to make these comparisons for my own use some time  ago, but the processing engines have not materially changed so the results would still be the same. The crops are zoomed in but not Capture sharpened. Sharpening will not only improve the micro-contrast, but also increase the visibility of artifacts, so we want the conversions to be as clean as possible, yet generate the highest resolution possible. False color artifacts are unavoidable if high resolution is the goal, and the various converters have means to suppress the visibility of such colorful distractions, but I've not used those in order to allow a better comparison of any issues that may need to be addressed

The red circle is at the Nyquist frequency, so within the circle only aliasing or fake structures (that occasionally look like real signal) can exist. The closer the sinusoidal grating gets to the Nyquist limit, the higher the resolution of the conversion is.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 20, 2015, 04:11:37 am by BartvanderWolf »
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bjanes

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2015, 10:43:25 am »

DPReview has posted a sample test target shot with the Canon 5DsR and the Zeiss Otus 85/1.4 at f/5.6. This is about as sharp as it gets. Obviously this high resolution can put demosaicing in raw converters at test.

The attached part is a crop from the DPReview image. Check out the word rain, three lines from the bottom. Note that readability is best in the back over grey image, probably because this has lowest contrast. Lightroom 6 is at top, AccuRaw at the center and Capture One at bottom. Very clearly, Lightroom demosaic needs some work and I am very disappointed that demosaic has not been improved LR6.

Eric,

Thanks for posting your results. Since ACR/LR are what I mostly use for my work with the D800e (another relatively high resolution camera without a low pass filter), I too am disappointed with the ACR/LR conversion. It has less detail but more Moire interference patterns than the other conversions. I don't know what settings you used with C1 with regard to sharpening, but the C1 image to me has the appearance of an oversharpened image. However, Moire is well controlled.

The AccuRaw conversion is most pleasing to me, but unfortunately it is Mac only so I can't use it in my Windows based workflow. Bart shows similar results with ACR, and his conversion with RawTherapee looks good. For my more important images that need to be rendered into a TIFF (interrupting the parametric workflow) I will try using RawTherapee and see if it makes any visible difference in A2 prints, which are the largest that I routinely make.

Regards,

Bill
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2015, 12:10:47 pm »

Hi Bill,

I used my own sharpening settings in Lightroom but defaults on Capture One. And yes, I think that C1 oversharpens.

RawTherapee has several demosaic methods to choose from.

Now, in the real world I don't feel that LR is that bad. I often have issues colour artefacts on my P45+, but Sony images are usually fine. I feel that LR seems to create a halo along high contrast edges on the P45+ even with no sharpening.

On the other hand, a lot of this is pixel peeping things. Prints are pretty tolerant about quite a few things.

I sort of hoped that we would see a new Process Version in LR6, but that was not the case.

Best regards
Erik



Eric,

Thanks for posting your results. Since ACR/LR are what I mostly use for my work with the D800e (another relatively high resolution camera without a low pass filter), I too am disappointed with the ACR/LR conversion. It has less detail but more Moire interference patterns than the other conversions. I don't know what settings you used with C1 with regard to sharpening, but the C1 image to me has the appearance of an oversharpened image. However, Moire is well controlled.

The AccuRaw conversion is most pleasing to me, but unfortunately it is Mac only so I can't use it in my Windows based workflow. Bart shows similar results with ACR, and his conversion with RawTherapee looks good. For my more important images that need to be rendered into a TIFF (interrupting the parametric workflow) I will try using RawTherapee and see if it makes any visible difference in A2 prints, which are the largest that I routinely make.

Regards,

Bill
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2015, 12:23:51 pm »

using three different Converters (Lightroom 5.7, RawTherapee 4.2.1, and Capture One 7.2.3) on the same Raw file from a Canon 1DS Mark III (with OLPF) with an EF-135mm f/2 L lens at f/5.6, and even there the differences are obvious.

Bart which RT algorithm did you use? was Emil's AMAZE already available at that time?

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2015, 12:42:11 pm »

Bart which RT algorithm did you use? was Emil's AMAZE already available at that time?

Hi Guillermo,

Yes AMAZE was used, and it is still amazing (with low risk of mazing artifacts which C1 sometimes does produce) on low ISO Raws, and it has been available for a long time already. RT 4.2.1 is not all that old (2014-10-25), is it?

RawTherapee of course also offers regularized Richardson-Lucy deconvolution sharpening, just to name one other benefit, also for TIFFs as input.

Cheers,
Bart
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2015, 02:10:13 pm »

Hi,

I feel that "igv" worked best on this image, gives clean and readable text and no colour artefacts. Here I sharpened with Rchardson-Lucy.

Best regards
Erik



Hi Guillermo,

Yes AMAZE was used, and it is still amazing (with low risk of mazing artifacts which C1 sometimes does produce) on low ISO Raws, and it has been available for a long time already. RT 4.2.1 is not all that old (2014-10-25), is it?

RawTherapee of course also offers regularized Richardson-Lucy deconvolution sharpening, just to name one other benefit, also for TIFFs as input.

Cheers,
Bart

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pfigen

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2015, 04:10:52 am »

Erik - Did you customize the NR and Detail settings in C1 for this test? While the default settings actually are very good for general purposes, if you're trying to see just how much detail C1 can pull, it's best to pull the Luminance NR slider full left and the Detail slider full right and maybe back off on the Color NR somewhat. The default C1 sharpening is way too much for me, but it's useful for previewing files to be processed. I think the "ignore sharpening" option is on by default in the processing sub tab. And then, just for shits and grins, you might try running your file through Iridient with its multitude of options to give a completely different perspective.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2015, 04:18:54 am »

Hi,

On these samples my focus was demosaicing rather than sharpening, that is how much false information is generated fine detail, like the word "rain" third line from the bottom.

Best regards
Erik


Erik - Did you customize the NR and Detail settings in C1 for this test? While the default settings actually are very good for general purposes, if you're trying to see just how much detail C1 can pull, it's best to pull the Luminance NR slider full left and the Detail slider full right and maybe back off on the Color NR somewhat. The default C1 sharpening is way too much for me, but it's useful for previewing files to be processed. I think the "ignore sharpening" option is on by default in the processing sub tab. And then, just for shits and grins, you might try running your file through Iridient with its multitude of options to give a completely different perspective.
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samueljohnchia

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2015, 10:39:56 am »

It would have been nice if they had also shot with the 5DS to demonstrate the differences with an OLP filter.

Hi Bart, apparently the 5Ds raw is also available. This is the link to the 5DsR raw just in case.

Do you think in this particular case, 5Ds vs 5DsR, that OLPFs are still relevant? My personal preference after attempting to process both raw files in Raw Therapee with AMaZE demosaicing is that yes, it is. But it would be great to learn from your own vast knowledge and experience.  :)
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Hans Kruse

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2015, 10:45:14 am »

Hi Bart, apparently the 5Ds raw is also available. This is the link to the 5DsR raw just in case.

Do you think in this particular case, 5Ds vs 5DsR, that OLPFs are still relevant? My personal preference after attempting to process both raw files in Raw Therapee with AMaZE demosaicing is that yes, it is. But it would be great to learn from your own vast knowledge and experience.  :)

This 5Ds raw file is using the Canon 85 f/1.8 lens and not the Otus.

sandymc

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2015, 11:05:06 am »

The AccuRaw conversion is most pleasing to me

 ;D :-* ;D :-* ;D :-* ;D :-*

Thanks,

Sandy
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samueljohnchia

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2015, 11:22:10 am »

This 5Ds raw file is using the Canon 85 f/1.8 lens and not the Otus.

So it seems. In fact the 5DsR file is also shot with the Canon 85 f/1.8 lens. Where did Dpreview upload the Otus shot studio scene?

Edit: I found it. Just took a look at the EF 85 1.8 vs the Otus 85mm, and the difference in sharpness is actually extremely small. In some zones, the Canon EF is actually better/sharper. I think it is still OK to make some assessments on the OLPF performance of the 5Ds vs the 5DsR with the Canon EF 85 studio shots.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 11:36:53 am by samueljohnchia »
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samueljohnchia

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2015, 12:07:08 pm »

I've attempted some conversions myself out of curiosity. If you are interested, you may check out the layered tiff stacks at these links. Download them and open in Photoshop to view. The layers are named and should be obvious what they mean. I also included the Otus shot on 5DsR with Raw Therapee AMaZE.

Here are crops sections of the text, star target and complementary color swirls.

I think AMaZE produces the best overall results. Capture One is a very close second. In some areas, C1 renders the text better. Iridient Developer actually is really good for detail several pixels wide, but does not produce "ultimate" detail of single pixel details. IGV appears to be the cleanest (color artifacts) at a glance but actually produces a lot of mazing. Lightroom has a curious zipper pattern most obvious between complementary colors.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2015, 02:15:18 pm »

So it seems. In fact the 5DsR file is also shot with the Canon 85 f/1.8 lens. Where did Dpreview upload the Otus shot studio scene?

Edit: I found it. Just took a look at the EF 85 1.8 vs the Otus 85mm, and the difference in sharpness is actually extremely small. In some zones, the Canon EF is actually better/sharper. I think it is still OK to make some assessments on the OLPF performance of the 5Ds vs the 5DsR with the Canon EF 85 studio shots.

Yes, pretty good for an old lens design from the early 1990'ties :)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2015, 02:15:52 pm »

Hi Bart, apparently the 5Ds raw is also available. This is the link to the 5DsR raw just in case.

Hi Samuel,

As you've noticed it's a set that was shot with a different lens, not a comparison between the two bodies with the same OTUS lens. But the differences at f/5.6 are not that large.

I expect that the 5dS/5DS R with a good lens will peak at f/4.5 or f/5.0, because of diffraction, the OTUS may score best at a tad wider but not much, if any. No matter how good a lens is, there will be residual aberrations which get more destructive as more of the lens glass edge rays are involved in image formation. It's just that difficult to achieve perfection. Also, while lens resolution can be higher at even wider apertures due to lower diffraction, the sensel apertures on the sensor chip itself will act as a physical averaging filter. Smaller lens projected detail will not be imaged as higher resolution, just generate more aliasing artifacts.

So at that f/4.5 aperture it would possibly show the most resolution difference between the bodies if there is any. The diffraction pattern diameter at f/4.5 is 6.25571 micron in diameter for 555nm wavelengths when an 85mm lens is focused at 3 metres,  or 1.51x the sensel pitch of the 5DS/5DS R. In my experience with other cameras, with the diffraction pattern diameter at 1.5x the sensel pitch, I start seeing some deterioration in the micro-contrast, nothing alarming, but the decline will start to increase with narrower apertures beyond that. Also my actual lens tests (although with different lenses and bodies) show that in practice the better lenses do peak near that 1.5x sensel pitch diffraction diameter pattern turning point. Lower quality lenses require a slightly narrower aperture to eliminate a bit more residual lens aberration before diffraction becomes a visibly dominating factor.

The resolution test files at f/5.6 will therefore already, in my estimation, have a bit of a leveling effect between the two bodies from diffraction. The difference in aliasing effects will thus be slightly less pronounced at f/5.6 compared to f/4.5. But this would also require extremely difficult to achieve perfect focus to become visible with some level of accuracy. At f/5.6 the DOF zone at e.g. 3 metres is 56.7 mm (slightly more than 2.2 inches), but within that zone there is only one very narrow plane with really perfect focus. To hit that perfect focus plane is hard and time consuming, it would require shooting a large number of different shots with very slightly different focus distances of the camera along that DOF zone range, e.g. with a Stack-shot rail or similar. So there may be small sub-perfect focus settings in the test shots from DPreview that also add some deterioration for one or the other body.

Quote
Do you think in this particular case, 5Ds vs 5DsR, that OLPFs are still relevant? My personal preference after attempting to process both raw files in Raw Therapee with AMaZE demosaicing is that yes, it is. But it would be great to learn from your own vast knowledge and experience.  :)

In general, and in particular with Bayer CFA limitations that will create false color artifacts, proper low-pass filtration is to be preferred in any Digital Signal Processing (DSP) scenario. The lenses will resolve more detail than the sensor can, and the Bayer CFA will therefore by definition generate false color artifacts, unless the Raw converter is very clever in hiding them (but hiding them is necessary). I've understood from comments by Emil Martinec, that the final steps of the AMAZE demosaicing algorithm, the 'ZE' part of the acronym, finishes the conversion with Zipper artifact Elimination, which actively adds a bit of blur, which e.g. the IGV algorithm doesn't. That's why that IGV method may be locally sharper, but with a higher risk of creating zipper artifacts on edge detail. In my experience AMAZE strikes a very good balance between resolution and yet low risk of generating artifacts.

However, although (optical) low-pass filtration before sampling is preferred, it does need to be weighted against the quality of the optical signal. So if one never shoots at the optimal aperture, then the diffraction (or residual lens aberrations) may have enough of an effect to equalize the differences between the bodies. We are getting smaller differences between OLP filtered versus non-OLPF cameras with shrinking sampling pitches, but at 4.14 micron there is still a difference when optimal conditions (lens correction, focus, and aperture, filterstack, microlenses) are present.

The question then becomes how much of a difference are we able to see (in optimal and in adverse conditions), and is it big enough to be concerned about (and pay extra for).

I will have to do the conversions of the f/1.8 lens Raws at f/5.6 myself, before I can judge the significance of the differences in (presumed) perfect focus circumstances. I may have a bit of time tomorrow to do a conversion of the Raws and do some measurements.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 05:48:44 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2015, 04:31:04 pm »

The question then becomes how much of a difference are we able to see (in optimal and in adverse conditions), and is it big enough to be concerned about (and pay extra for).

I will have to do the conversions of the f/1.8 lens Raws at f/5.6 myself, before I can judge the significance of the differences in (presumed) perfect focus circumstances. I may have a bit of time tomorrow to do a conversion of the Raws and do some measurements.

Well, it's as I expected. There is a significant enough difference to cause problems under ideal circumstances, but under less than optimal conditions the aliasing cancellation filter might help. So it then becomes very much a matter of subject, lens quality and settings, and shooting technique.

If one shoots subjects with fine edge detail that has high contrast, then expect trouble in the form of false color aliasing (partly curable) and unrealistic edge detail that looks odd. But for subjects with subtle micro-contrast, the 'R' might be able to create a bit more structural detail. The good news however, is that the 5DS images will sharpen 'better' (with fewer artifacts and more natural looking) and still achieve almost the same resolution, all the way to the limit of the Nyquist frequency.

I've attached a comparison of the MTF curves after an unsharpened Capture One 8.3.2 conversion (rawconverter quality matters), which shows that the 'R' can squeeze almost 10% more modulation out of the presumed(!) equally well focused raw images from DPReview, shot with the same lens (EF 85mm f/1.8 at f/5.6). This also shows that the 5DS has a reasonably good suppression of aliasing at f/5.6 with the lens used, but that the 5DS R will allow significant aliasing if fine detail is present in the optical projection. The 'non-R' model will create fewer issues when used near its optical optimum.

There are some spots in the test images that most clearly show what kind of issues to expect, like the pen drawing and banknote, and lines on the playing cards. I'll see if I can find some time to add some crops, before and after Capture sharpening. One can also attempt to mitigate the visibility of the artifacts first. Some of the false color artifacts can be desaturated, but the jagged edges/lines and detail snapping in and out of focus cannot be dealt with as easily.

Optimum Capture sharpening settings (preventing Halos) in Capture One, for this lens and at f/5.6, seem to be around [Radius 0.7, amount 70] for the 5DS R, and [Radius 0.6, amount 55] for the 5DS R , both with threshold 0.1. Depending on image content one can increase the amount a bit. Better Capture sharpening can be achieved with dedicated (deconvolution) sharpening tools, but if one has to work quickly, those would be the C1 values I'd use (assuming perfect focus was achieved). Selective (creative) sharpening can be added in an adjustment layer or with better dedicated tools, like Topaz Detail.

With FocusMagic, a radius of 1 and amounts of 125% for the 5DS and 100% for the 5DS R seem about right for these images as Capture sharpening. Topaz InFocus also seems to do well on the C1 conversions, but it is (as usual) very easy to overdo the settings and noise can easily get 'enhanced' more than with FocusMagic.

Sharpening the 5DS R files is much more difficult due to the aliasing artifacts, so I'm slightly gravitating towards the 5DS as a preferred basis if large output must be produced. The results look more 'organic' and less jagged in sharp detail.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: July 27, 2015, 09:16:52 am by BartvanderWolf »
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samueljohnchia

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2015, 05:11:09 am »

Wonderful and invalueable comments Bart, thank you! And thanks for doing all the math work. I am familiar with your thoughts on the DLA being around where the COC is 1.5x the pixel pitch, just do not know how you calculate those values.

I find it interesting that you use Capture One for your raw processing, and yet you also hold the AMaZE demosaicing algorithm with such high regard. Would you say that Capture One provides slightly better overall demosaicing quality than AmaZE? Or is it for other reasons that you prefer C1 to RT? I switched to RT from ACR, and I am wondering if it is worth paying for C1 and ditching RT.

I would most likely be getting the Sony A7R II instead of the Canon 5Ds/R for my work, so I would not even have the choice of AA filtered or not. I would tend to photograph at much narrower apertures than f5.6, being a landscape photographer, so in all likelihood diffraction from stopping down would eliminate most of the artifacts. I have seen weird artifacts from my 36mp A7R even when stopped down to f11 or so occasionally, but it is difficult to tell if an OLPF would have eliminated those artifacts.

Thanks too for the sharpening settings recommendation. I am using Focus Magic for capture sharpening now, and I also find a radius of 1 to be my preferred setting most of the time. I sharpen on a duplicate image layer, and use the blend-if sliders to control the overshoot. I find Focus Magic tends to produce overly dark halos on high contrast edges and needs some user intervention to feather it away.

P.S. Are the labels for the 5Ds and R flipped for the attached graph?
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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2015, 09:55:05 am »

I find it interesting that you use Capture One for your raw processing, and yet you also hold the AMaZE demosaicing algorithm with such high regard. Would you say that Capture One provides slightly better overall demosaicing quality than AmaZE? Or is it for other reasons that you prefer C1 to RT? I switched to RT from ACR, and I am wondering if it is worth paying for C1 and ditching RT.

Hi Samuel,

No need to ditch RT, but it's just not everybody's type of tool. It packs a host of very good features, but the interface may get a bit overwhelming for less technically inclined users. I used C1 because it is my main Raw converter with some wonderful workflow benefits and overall produces a very good image quality. So that's what I use most, and wanted to test with first.

Quote
I would most likely be getting the Sony A7R II instead of the Canon 5Ds/R for my work, so I would not even have the choice of AA filtered or not. I would tend to photograph at much narrower apertures than f5.6, being a landscape photographer, so in all likelihood diffraction from stopping down would eliminate most of the artifacts. I have seen weird artifacts from my 36mp A7R even when stopped down to f11 or so occasionally, but it is difficult to tell if an OLPF would have eliminated those artifacts.

Given that Bayer CFA equipped sensors usually undersample the optical system's projected image, one would need to (mis)use a lot of diffraction to avoid all aliasing potential. That's why usually an OLP-filter is preferrable, it just creates a more realistic signal for discrete sampling and processing.

Quote
Thanks too for the sharpening settings recommendation. I am using Focus Magic for capture sharpening now, and I also find a radius of 1 to be my preferred setting most of the time. I sharpen on a duplicate image layer, and use the blend-if sliders to control the overshoot. I find Focus Magic tends to produce overly dark halos on high contrast edges and needs some user intervention to feather it away.

Yes, FocusMagic is my #1 capture sharpener, and I also use a Blend-if Luminosity layer to restrict the potential clipping that sharpening could cause. That's not necessarily an error from FM but it''s just that a blurred image will have lower amplitude edge detail, and restoring that to the original sharpness can drive signal levels into clipping. It's also my opinion that already high edge contrast doesn't need as much restoration to look sharper, and it can easily also lead to making aliasing artifacts more visible. So that's why I use the blend-if approach.

It's a pity that modern sharpening tools do not automatically detect the proper Radius setting (to offset diffraction + other Capture blur, and defocus) from the actual image (FocusMagic does attempt to do so, but may be too pessimistic). I'm working on such a detection tool, but my available time is limited. Until then, we'll have to empirically test and evaluate images shot at different apertures and converted with different Raw conversion engines ...

Quote
P.S. Are the labels for the 5Ds and R flipped for the attached graph?

Oops, you're right. I've adjusted the chart's labeling.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: High resolution test image from Canon 5DsR - three raw converters
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2015, 11:53:06 am »

Here are some examples of problem areas, all processed with Capture One Pro 8.3.2, with a linear tone-curve and the generic camera profile, and with sharpening disabled. The additional Capture sharpening examples, so only to restore the optical signal while avoiding halo formation that might interfere with later upsampling, are just a first step toward output. The images can be made much crispier than that, depending on the intended output conditions. It's just a first step into fully processing the image.

The false color artifacts can be effectively suppressed by the built in tools of many Raw converters, but the actual aliasing (which mimics as real detail) will only get worse with further processing. So in this case, where it might be mistaken for real detail to a casual observer, one might locally reduce the Capture sharpening, or locally prevent further processing in later stages of development of the image.

Cheers,
Bart
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