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Author Topic: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.  (Read 80797 times)

WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #40 on: July 21, 2015, 12:19:58 pm »

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Typical Olino.org lamp test report that gives more than the CRI value and goes into the details of CRI values on another page.

http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2013/12/18/installerdirect-com-ge-led6-5d-gu10-840-fl-bx-dimmable

They test a lot of parameters but most of them are of interest to light fixture installers.  I think that the only parameters that are relevant to photographers are color temperature, CRI and chromaticity.  With their definition of chromaticity being about how "white" the lamp is.  See their Light with the color white explanation page.   (Graeme, is Olino.org's chromaticity rating comparable to ColorMeter's Delta E metric?)

Olino.org's A close look at the Color Rendering Index (CRI, or Ra) page does a good job of driving a stake through the heart of CRI.  Scroll down about 2/3 to Is the comparison index a good one?  They show spectral graphs for three LEDish illuminants that have identical spectrum shapes, but differ in color temperature.    The 3084 K one is CRI 94; the 3076 K one is CRI 83; and the 3019 K one is CRI 88.

A bit lower (CRI and led light bulbs) is a summary of tests commissioned by the CIE about how well the CRI works with white LEDs.  Result: the CIE CRI is in general not applicable for a ranking on color rendition when white led sources are part of the observed illuminants. (I think that CRI is the only color rendering test that Olino.org has)

This is a great site, but unfortunately doesn't cover many (any?) lamps that are currently available in the US.   We need someone in the US to set up a similar site.  Preferably with more exacting color rendering tests.  Maybe we shouldn't wait for official CIE color rendering tests.

Wayne
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 12:51:58 pm by WayneLarmon »
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #41 on: July 21, 2015, 12:47:46 pm »

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The current "fix" to the limitations of CRI is to make sure that the R9 value is greater than zero.

[ R9 is the CRI saturated red patch, which is not part of the average CRI Ra value. ]

The CIE has apparently crept past CRI Ra:

As discussed in Schanda & Sándor (2005), CIE (1999) recommends the use of a ColorChecker chart owing to the obsolescence of the original samples, of which only metameric matches remain. In addition to the eight ColorChart samples, two skin tone samples are defined (TCS09* and TCS10*). Accordingly, the updated general CRI is averaged over ten samples, not eight as before.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index#New_test_color_samples

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The lighting industry appears to have successfully sabotaged several attempts to update CRI, although TLCI seems to have snuck around this by being a "Television Standard".

Yes.  I'm looking forward to TLCI tests.  To test new technology LEDs, like the Soraa LEDs that Tim mentioned earlier.

Wayne



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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #42 on: July 21, 2015, 02:51:24 pm »

Well, actually, it's a 6pack of tubes. 

You can also purchase individual replacement tubes from Just-Normlicht or GTI for approx $15-20 each

I missed the (6 lamps) designation, Howard, but still I don't think the OP is going to need 6 four ft. tubes even as replacements since one tube can put out quite a bit of light and last for years. And there's the fixture that has to be installed. I did this for years with one 4ft. GE Chroma 50 I bought at Lowes installed high up on the wall behind my display. The light was just too bright and had a subtle magenta/light pink tinge that often made my calibrated display look greenish due to adaptation which is why I'ld discourage this setup.

Have it off to the side or behind the user but most of all out of direct line of sight with both display and light.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2015, 03:25:22 pm »

And something of note I've noticed concerning artificial daylight/white light as ambient light around a display points to this nasty invisible or subtle hue on the green/magenta axis whose affects on adaptation is quite pronounced in fluorescent lights but LED's add a subtle cyan element that's close to the hue of cyan that makes up yellow/cyan mix of green. Within the pigment filtering mechanism some greens (more on the yellow side) aid in representing warmth (pale yellow/orange) in 4000K type daylight lights which is pretty much all of them. LED's tend to error on the cyan side of this warmth but it affects adaptation in unexpected and unpredictable ways.

In addition all custom incamera WB using a WhiBal card of fluorescent lights with my DSLR shooting Raw and developing in ACR always show an extreme over compensation of green by producing As Shot tint of +17 to +30 toward magenta. The Walmart Daylight LED's also do this.

However, the Soraa LED produces As Shot tint of -5 to -10 toward green. But my 6500K calibrated display neutrality when editing for long periods of time and going to the other room where I have the Soraa make its color of white look kind of greenish yellow.

Another reason to not have any artificial light in the line of sight of your display.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2015, 05:15:37 pm »

They test a lot of parameters but most of them are of interest to light fixture installers.  I think that the only parameters that are relevant to photographers are color temperature, CRI and chromaticity.  
Wayne

The spectral plots at least add some information to the CRI numbers. The number of spikes etc. The radiation pattern is important for viewing lights too. Warming up time etc has been discussed here before. Given some illumination levels one wonders whether the scotopic / photopic spectral plots are insignificant for viewing lights. Aardenburg Imaging sets a minimum level of 500 Lux for critical color viewing and an optimal one at 2000 Lux.

Edit: Olino is switching to another color quality standard:
http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2015/03/07/color-quality-scale-cqs-measuring-the-color-quality-of-light-sources

As I understand it Olino will test a lamp when they receive it so there could be more US distributed lamps in the range. I do not expect a US initiative for similar independent tests soon.


Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
December 2014 update, 700+ inkjet media white spectral plots
« Last Edit: July 25, 2015, 06:21:21 am by Ernst Dinkla »
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picman

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2015, 04:52:15 pm »

We've got a person at work who likes this:
http://fiilex.com/products/V70.php

I'm by no means an expert, but would be interested in thoughts.

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sgwrx

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2015, 09:58:01 pm »

i wondered about the fiilex v70 lamp also. the "dense matrix led".  that must be why they are able to offer different color temps.  which is interesting and could be quite effective for comparing colors of objects (besides just prints) under different lighting colors.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2015, 10:13:53 pm »

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Edit: Olino is switching to another color quality standard:
http://www.olino.org/us/articles/2015/03/07/color-quality-scale-cqs-measuring-the-color-quality-of-light-sources

This is good to hear.  Robin Myers Imaging's SpectraShop also supports CQS.

I got the Soraa LED that Tim mentioned earlier in this thread.  I tested it.   First, here is a bog standard 5000K Philips LED that I got at Home Depot for less than $10 (USD):


Here is the Soraa 00807

(I'm using a ColorMunki that is UV cut.  I think that the Soraa LEDs emit higher in the UV range, but a ColorMunki can't see UV.)

And here is an MR-16 50 watt Solux 4700K lamp


Every 5000K LED that I've gotten from local hardware stores has measured very similar to the Philips.  The Soraa LED is something different.  I'm not too thrilled about the dip in the blues and that ColorMeter is only rating it at CRI 89.6  (I tried several measurements, from various angles and they all were about the same.  It is possible that the ColorMunki's UV cut affects the CRI measurement for the Soraa lamp.  Dunno.)  

But it does look promising.  It shows that LEDs can be improved.  However, we still need better color rendering testing metrics.  (Or for somebody to start testing human standard observers again.)

My eyes... after some quick tests, I think that the Solux lamp looks more like the light from the sun.  But the Soraa is definitely better than any other LED (or CFL.)  And is a whole lot easier to deal with than 12 volt MR-16 Solux bulbs are.

Wayne
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 10:15:27 pm by WayneLarmon »
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Lundberg02

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #48 on: August 08, 2015, 12:01:43 am »

I'm getting a     
Lavish Home Sunlight Desk Lamp, Black (26")  thirty bucks  6500K  1300 lumens.  I wonder if the lumens are the same lumens that tactical flashlight sellers use, i e  followed  by the square root of negative one.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #49 on: August 08, 2015, 09:50:08 am »

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I'm getting a Lavish Home Sunlight Desk Lamp, Black (26")  thirty bucks  6500K  1300 lumens

Would it be this one?  If so, then it is a fluorescent lamp.  The product info says that it is a "27-Watt bulb, with a C.R.I. (Color Rendering Index) of 80-85".   For the record, here is a graph of the best (CRI 93) CFL bulb that I could find:

Indoor Sunshine: Single 30-watt Spiral Bulb

All the other fluorescent bulbs I tested were worse.

However...spectral plots don't tell the whole story.  Even though the spectral plots for fluorescent lamps and LEDs look vastly different (see my previous post for the plot of a standard 5000K LED.), the light looks very similar to my eyes.  My kitchen has a four bulb ceiling fan fixture.  I put two of the above mentioned (my previous post) Philips 5000K LEDs and two ALZO 5000K LEDs (that test worse than the Indoor Sunshine LED) in the fixture at the same time.  One side of the room was illuminated with the LEDs and the other with the CFLs.  But the light looked identical.

As of right now, I think that the Soraa 00807 lamp that Tim recommended might be the best bet.  But now 1000Bulbs is showing them as "Not for Sale. Reference Only."  eLightbulbs has them listed, but still out of stock.  (I got mine from eLightbulbs so I can vouch for their service.)

This particular bulb is a bit large for a desk lamp.  Soraa makes them in smaller form factors.

Wayne
« Last Edit: August 08, 2015, 09:52:16 am by WayneLarmon »
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digitaldog

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #50 on: August 08, 2015, 10:01:12 am »

 It is possible that the ColorMunki's UV cut affects the CRI measurement for the Soraa lamp.  Dunno.)  
My eyes... after some quick tests, I think that the Solux lamp looks more like the light from the sun.
I'd ignore the CRI numbers and pay far more attention to your eyes and the spectral plots. From what you've shown and described, you've saved me money NOT buying the Soraa! Thanks for that. Not ready for prime time despite the reports compared to Solux based on both your data points.
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Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management" on pluralsight.com

digitaldog

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #51 on: August 08, 2015, 10:02:55 am »

However...spectral plots don't tell the whole story.  Even though the spectral plots for fluorescent lamps and LEDs look vastly different (see my previous post for the plot of a standard 5000K LED.), the light looks very similar to my eyes.
The spikes indicate issues could arise with papers with OBAs. Or potential metameric failure.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #52 on: August 08, 2015, 02:45:02 pm »

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The spikes indicate issues could arise with papers with OBAs.

Tim was was concerned with OBAs when he mentioned the Soraa 00807 earlier in this thread.

Soraa themselves say

"Unlike blue LEDs whose emission starts at 430nm, Soraa’s spectral emission begins at 400nm, providing all the fluorescent excitation needed to discriminate clearly between shades of white."
http://www.soraa.com/technology/VP3-natural-white

The above linked Soraa page is titled "Simply Perfect Whites", and talks about how Soraa bulbs are better for evaluating whites.  But am I correct that this intentional fluorescent excitation could cause issues with evaluating the effect of OBAs?   

Wayne



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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2015, 06:15:04 pm »

Thanks so much for posting the comparison info on the Soraa and other print viewing lights, Wayne.

Can you verify with your copy of the Soraa 00807 whether the front glass has micro cracks and if you get shadow halos testing by moving your hand closer and farther away between the light and a wall as demonstrated in the pics below?

Soraa claims they eliminated halos with their specially designed point source LED. When I emailed them through their website kiosk style email page they had one of their techs reply but now I can't find the email. It was odd looking simple text email with no headers or from/to and now it's disappeared and I can't remember what the tech wrote.

I just want to confirm with another non-biased customer who has the same model whether my copy has a manufacturing defect.

First Solux with their crappy Eiko task lamps power converter block going out with no help from Tailored Lighting and now Soraa with their shady style communications and lack of availability of their product online. Something doesn't smell right.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #54 on: August 08, 2015, 09:27:54 pm »

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Can you verify with your copy of the Soraa 00807 whether the front glass has micro cracks and if you get shadow halos testing by moving your hand closer and farther away between the light and a wall as demonstrated in the pics below?

I don't think that mine has micro cracks that look like yours.  See attached image.

But I don't know about the shadow halos.   The image I'm attaching doesn't show halos, but I don't know what distances you are using.  How far is the light from the wall?  What angles are involved?  etc.

I did some ad hoc testing comparing against a CFL in another fixture and both had shadow halos at some distances/angles.  And didn't at other distances/angles.

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Something doesn't smell right.

I haven't read anything specifically about Soraa, but this article about Cree in (industry journal) LEDs Magazine indicates that the high end LED market is being squeezed:  

Cree restructures LED business in face of mid-power onslaught

...Cree has announced restructuring in its LED manufacturing business that has been driven by higher than anticipated erosion on packaged LED selling prices...
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2015/06/cree-restructures-led-business-in-face-of-mid-power-onslaught.html

We want high end LEDs and are willing to pay a (reasonable) premium.   But I think that the hordes of shoppers in WalMart (etc.) are a lot more interested in low price.   IMO.  

After writing the above paragraph, I looked up an article about Soraa where they are bragging about a color rendering test that they sponsored (they did well on the test.)  But the magazine comments

The Penn St research, however, leaves more questions unanswered than it actually answers. There is the question of what premium people will pay for higher quality.
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2014/09/penn-state-research-on-color-rendering-reinforces-soraa-s-led-claims.html

The article goes on to note that there are now other companies marketing LEDs with improved color rendering.  And veers into the knotty issue of color rendering tests.  

I'm a bit concerned that Soraa stresses preferred colors, and not accurate colors.  See the Soraa blog post about the rendering test that they sponsored.  It sounds like Soraa lamps are designed to exaggerate chroma to a certain extent.  (Maybe?)

But I am happy that at least the color rendering issue is being discussed.

Wayne

p.s., note that the blog I linked to has the email address of Soraa's Chief Scientist.  He wants your comments...
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:38:43 am by WayneLarmon »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #55 on: August 09, 2015, 05:49:57 pm »

Thanks for those informative links, Wayne.

I found the Soraa emails in my "Sent" box but their subject line was "George Rasko...PAR30LAMP OPTICS", not Soraa. George Rasko is Soraa's applications engineer and he forwarded the pictures showing the shadow halos to the guy who designs the lenses for their lamps and this is what he said...

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This is normal to me. Par30’s optical aperture is 84mm.

1st image: The distance between light source and the hand is only 8inch/200mm, under this condition I don’t think Soraa lamp is still considered as point source. Therefore, the edge will have multiple shadows.

2nd image: because the bike is very far away from light source. We can consider the lamp as point source. Therefore, the edge is very crisp.

That's why I never pursued this further. So the cracked glass has nothing to do with the shadow halos.

I've emailed Aurelien David, Soraa's Chief Scientist from the linked Soraa blog and I'll see what he says.
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #56 on: August 09, 2015, 06:41:15 pm »

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So the cracked glass has nothing to do with the shadow halos.

But I am concerned about the cracked glass.  Were the cracks always in your lamp?  Or did the cracks develop over time?

One thing that spooked me when I was comparing my Soraa bulb with other bulbs this afternoon is that mine flickers for 10-20 seconds after power has been removed.  I first thought that maybe the power switch to the fixture had gone bad and was arcing in the off position.  But I unscrewed the Soraa lamp and it flickers even after being removed from the socket.  I've never seen a bulb act like this.

Oh, if you want to take another look at Solux bulbs without having to do wiring, look at the Imatest Low cost DIY lighting setup.  (You need to scroll down to Low cost DIY lighting.)  It involves track lighting that that is bolted to a mike stand.  But you don't need to do any wiring--There is a pre-assembled power plug that plugs into the track lighting fixture.  I checked the links to the track lighting company and the links are still alive, so presumably you can still buy the track lighting.

Wayne
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #57 on: August 09, 2015, 08:41:35 pm »

But I am concerned about the cracked glass.  Were the cracks always in your lamp?  Or did the cracks develop over time?

One thing that spooked me when I was comparing my Soraa bulb with other bulbs this afternoon is that mine flickers for 10-20 seconds after power has been removed.  I first thought that maybe the power switch to the fixture had gone bad and was arcing in the off position.  But I unscrewed the Soraa lamp and it flickers even after being removed from the socket.  I've never seen a bulb act like this.

I just noticed the cracks about a week ago after purchasing the bulb in March of this year which I didn't check at that time. Couldn't say if it was a gradual progression caused by the heat or it was that way when I bought it.

I don't have flicker issues with mine.

But all in all quite a few of the new daylight LED and CFL bulbs I've bought in the last 5 or so years that wasn't built by GE or Philips has had issues after extended use and some just sitting in a lamp but rarely turned on. My 4 year old Alzo is now vibrating with a loud buzz as of yesterday when I turned it on to compare to the Soraa. It didn't do this when I first bought it. The Walmart daylight LEDs are really doing well especially the two installed in an enclosed frosted decorative glass dome in my kitchen ceiling. I'ld thought they'ld crap out by now from the heat generated.

I think new startup bulb design makers employing new technologies may have a hard time finding, keeping or maintaining reliable manufacturing facilities and materials compared to the corporations that've been around longer with deeper pockets.

That Imatest MR16 track light setup looks like the way to go for even broad full spectrum lighting. Glad there's a way to plug the rig into a wall. Thanks for the heads up on that, Wayne.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2015, 08:46:20 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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WayneLarmon

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #58 on: August 10, 2015, 12:03:58 pm »

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I think new startup bulb design makers employing new technologies may have a hard time finding, keeping or maintaining reliable manufacturing facilities and materials compared to the corporations that've been around longer with deeper pockets.

This stuff is tricky.  I've been trying to improve my understanding of color science by reading books on color science.  Color science books are generally treated as college textbooks and are priced accordingly (usually more then $100 (US)).  However, I've been able to find earlier editions of these books a lot cheaper.

Principles of Color Technology, 2nd edition, by Billmeyer and Saltzman is still available for less than $6.   I highly recommend this book.  It is one of the standard references for color science but is easy to read (it uses jokes and cartoons to illustrate points.)

I somehow managed to buy a used copy of Color Science: Concepts and Methods, Quantitive Data and Formulae, Second Edition by Wysecki and Stiles for less than $30 on Amazon, but I don't see it offered at anywhere this price now.  Instead...

The Wyszecki and Stiles book is tough reading anyway.  It is very dense and is mostly dry technical proses with lots and lots of long equations.  Needless to say, there are no jokes or cartoons.   I read it, but I wouldn't want to take any test based on it.  

I've been crawling the articles I linked to in my earlier post and (if you follow all the links in each article), a lot of color theory that is germane to the color rendering issues are covered fairly extensively.   A lot of what is covered in the above two textbooks is covered in the articles (if you crawl all the links.)    At least regarding color rendering.

FWIW, here is a copy/paste from my notes of links to the articles I crawled:

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=102190.msg843308#msg843308
 http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2015/06/cree-restructures-led-business-in-face-of-mid-power-onslaught.html
 http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2014/09/penn-state-research-on-color-rendering-reinforces-soraa-s-led-claims.html
   Metrics aside, color rendering matters: http://www.soraa.com/news/ctoblog-september-18-2014
   http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2014/07/lumileds-delivers-broader-spectrum-in-crispwhite-cob-led.html
   http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2013/07/led-business-news-philips-financials-xicato-module-aixtron-epileds-crs.html
   http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2013/01/lighting-coalition-asks-epa-to-lower-energy-star-efficacy-specs-for-high-cri-lamps.html
   MacAdams... http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-9/issue-3/features/ssl-must-still-clear-hurdles-to-enable-mass-adoption-of-led-lighting-magazine.html

 http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-11/issue-4/features/technology/led-advancements-drive-quality-of-light-gains.html
  http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/2012/05/understand-color-science-to-maximize-success-with-leds-magazine.html
  http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-9/issue-7/features/understand-color-science-to-maximize-success-with-leds-part-2-magazine.html
  http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-9/issue-10/features/understand-color-science-to-maximize-success-with-leds-part-3.html
  http://www.ledsmagazine.com/articles/print/volume-10/issue-2/features/understand-color-science-to-maximize-success-with-leds-part-4-magazine.html

Quote
That Imatest MR16 track light setup looks like the way to go for even broad full spectrum lighting. Glad there's a way to plug the rig into a wall. Thanks for the heads up on that, Wayne.

Sigh, with the SOTA for LEDs being what it is, I may go that route also.  On the bright side, if Soraa steps their game up a bit, they also make MR-16 lamps so you could swap them out in the same track lighting fixtures.

Wayne
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 12:08:14 pm by WayneLarmon »
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howardm

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Re: Choosing a new desk lamp for digital processing.
« Reply #59 on: August 10, 2015, 01:38:13 pm »

depends on the track lighting fixtures.  some are MR16 and others are BR30 or PAR30 style.

I know that Soraa will be introducing a range of BR30 lamps in Q1 or Q2 of next year but I think they will not be more than 3000-4000K color.  So, they can be useful for standard recessed lighting replacement at least.
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