Is the Sony A7R II the first "universal body"?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Thanks Bart, and I was aware of these M screens. I tried them once with a borrowed A900 which had it, but then found the viewfinder for dark scenes is getting too dark for me and less ideal for for instance stage photography.
Like all things, incl. EVF vs. OVF, vs. different screens etc. it's always a compromise.

Absolutely.

The "ideal" camera still has to be invented (for me at least).

It's always a good thing to strive for perfection. Aim low and you'll shoot low, therefore I try to aim higher than that. Perfection may turn out to be a little too expensive, but we can assume that EVFs will improve on speed and resolution, they're just not there yet.

BTW, my main camera (1Ds3) has an custom function to trigger the shutter some 20% faster (at 40-44 ms) than regular (55 ms) shutter-lag after fully pressing the release button, but it may run into stabilization issues if a narrow aperture is set that needs more time to fully close and settle, so when closing it down 3 stops of more, then it's delayed again.

So when EVFs allow a 55 ms shutter-lag, combined with fast refresh times and high resolution, we'll have to find something else to bitch about.  

Cheers,
Bart

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I am honestly interested in your experience with focusing on todays cameras. I do know that you are a great expert in manual focusing, have you found something that works for you with today's digital cameras?

Best regards
Erik

It's not only the viewscreen.  The Nikon F and F2, unlike AF SLR cameras, have a fully-silvered mirror instead of semi-silvered so the viewscreen does not need to compensate for the dim image.  Furthermore, the bean counters apparently have instructed the AF cameras' engineers that since the camera's users will be using AF, designing the cameras so that the viewscreen image plane can be easily adjusted to coincide with the sensor image plane is an unwarranted expense.

[LKaven]

What i notice is that it is the first time Sony brings out a camera with more pixels than Nikon- If we consider that the sensor technology is Sony's that could mean their contract has finished or is altered.

One might expect a 54MP Sony sensor to appear first in a Nikon update.  With lossless raw format. :-)  I'm guessing that Nikon will want to beat the Canon 5Ds at this game, and a 42MP sensor will not do that.

I am also guessing that 42MP was a design choice that took into consideration the bandwidth requirements of live-view streaming into the EVF. 

[chez]

Nah, that's what Live View is for, or better yet a (lightning fast) micro-adjusted Phase Detect Focus system which doesn't take the full view away, so one can properly compose and focus, and even follow/predict motion if the subject moves. I recommend trying it if your shooting style/subject could benefit from it. There are of course many shooting scenarios, and even more photographers, where the result is not that critical. But for professional results, one best uses the proper tools (which can differ by subject), sometimes EVF, sometimes OVF (with additional Life View).

Cheers,
Bart

Yes, but to use Liveview you need to take away your eye from the viewfinder and look at your composition holding the camera away from your body. You call this better than just looking through the viewfinder and zooming in for fine focus.

I think you are just stretching things to point towards OVF. In reality, it has become a pleasure to manually focus my A7R using the EVF. I tried a different screens in my 5d2 with not much luck in manually focusing. It is truly night and day using the A7R.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Yes, but to use Liveview you need to take away your eye from the viewfinder and look at your composition holding the camera away from your body. You call this better than just looking through the viewfinder and zooming in for fine focus.

No, I call the Phase detect focusing better, because it allows to remain a full overview over the composition, without the need to zoom in.

I think you are just stretching things to point towards OVF.

I think you suffer from selective reading. I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both approaches, and neither one is the bees knee.

In reality, it has become a pleasure to manually focus my A7R using the EVF. I tried a different screens in my 5d2 with not much luck in manually focusing. It is truly night and day using the A7R.

I'm happy for you.

Cheers,
Bart

[AlterEgo]

It's not only the viewscreen.

so they are not spec'd for focusing @ f1.4 for example, thank you.

[AlterEgo]

but especially for smaller apertures the OVF becomes so dark that you can hardly see anything, neither composition nor dof.

and even more when you put inside a coarser screen which is designed so to work with fast primes

[AlterEgo]

the OOF part from apertures wider than f/1.8 is accurate...(although the screen is not optimized for that, it does work)...

right, the broken watch shows the correct time twice a day and manufacturer itself does not want to take credit for what is reliably accurate in their own materials... what an honestly on their part !  now I believe in 2nd coming too

(there are few lenses that are wider than f/1.8, so that makes less sense to concentrate on).

surely it makes no sense to concentrate on what your equipment is not spec'd for  , it seems that not only DOF magically disappears there, but lenses too ...

[AlterEgo]

but note that the secondary OVF image scattered off a frosted glass/plastic screen is limited in resolution to the equivalent of under 2 MP

and again -> more so when you have a coarser focusing screen designed for brighter lenses focusing

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

right, the broken watch shows the correct time twice a day and manufacturer itself does not want to take credit for what is reliably accurate in their own materials... what an honestly on their part !  now I believe in 2nd coming too

surely it makes no sense to concentrate on what your equipment is not spec'd for  , it seems that not only DOF magically disappears there, but lenses too ...

Thanks. That response made it completely clear that you are only trolling, so for me there's no need to waste time on your 'contribution' for further replies/explanations. I hope others have found the exchange of information useful.

Cheers,
Bart

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Newer generations of mirrorless camera have phase detection on sensor, so they can combine phase detection with contrast sensing.

I don't know if on sensor PD is as good as the traditional AF. There is a lot of hype.

Best regards
Erik

No, I call the Phase detect focusing better, because it allows to remain a full overview over the composition, without the need to zoom in.

I think you suffer from selective reading. I can see the benefits and drawbacks of both approaches, and neither one is the bees knee.

I'm happy for you.

Cheers,
Bart

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Newer generations of mirrorless camera have phase detection on sensor, so they can combine phase detection with contrast sensing.

Hi Erik,

Yes, that's an encouraging development as well, just like image stabilization will help with obtaining better focus, although its effectiveness and effect on local image sensel density probably also does depend on the actual implementation. PDAF photosites that can still sample image color are preferred.

I don't know if on sensor PD is as good as the traditional AF. There is a lot of hype.

It's a recent development in consumer cameras, but time will tell. CMOS devices and faster processing open up a treasure trove of possibilities.

Cheers,
Bart

[eronald]

I think we can answer "Yes" to the question - Is the Sony A7R II the first "universal body"?

This is a landmark design just like the Nikon F or the Rolleiflex - not the first of the type, but the first where all the features - hi rez, easy third party lens use, alien lens focus, hi rez video internal recording, hi iso, in body stabilisation all come together.

Edmund

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

I think we can answer "Yes" to the question - Is the Sony A7R II the first "universal body"?

It indeed looks like it, although we'll probably have to wait till August before actual users can gain some experience.

Cheers,
Bart

[telyt]

I don't know if on sensor PD is as good as the traditional AF. There is a lot of hype.

"as good" meaning …?

If speed is the goodness you want, further development of PDAF in mirrorless cameras will erase any differences sooner or later.  If accuracy is the goodness you want, let's just say that with mirrorless you can dump the AF micro adjustment kludge in the trash where it belongs.

[eronald]

"as good" meaning …?

If speed is the goodness you want, further development of PDAF in mirrorless cameras will erase any differences sooner or later.  If accuracy is the goodness you want, let's just say that with mirrorless you can dump the AF micro adjustment kludge in the trash where it belongs.

My Panasonic GH4 does focus from "depth of defocus" and it works very well.

Edmund

[Telecaster]

I suspect VF preferences largely boil down to what we started off with. I learned pic-taking with a Leica M2 & 50mm lens, so a small-ish frame combined with being able to see a bit outside it was "normal." I thought SLR viewing/framing was weird when I first experienced it. I missed being able to see beyond the frame border. These days I prefer EVFs but I can get by with anything that gives me a frame along with a broad idea of what's inside it. For me high detail is very useful for manual focusing but otherwise not necessary. I'm quite near-sighted and sometimes remove my glasses when using AF cameras to simplify my viewing.

Every AF SLR I've ever owned has driven me to distraction with its PDAF focusing inconsistencies & inaccuracies. The CDAF systems in current EVF cameras are IMO worlds better. If I want an uncluttered view I can just turn off all the info displays. I don't need swift AF tracking as I rarely use continuous focusing modes. But this is me. Let's not make the error of assuming our personal preferences are universal mandates.

-Dave-

[jrp]

I am also guessing that 42MP was a design choice that took into consideration the bandwidth requirements of live-view streaming into the EVF. 

I seem to recall reading that 42mpx was chosen because it is easier to generate 4k video without additional interpolation.

[LKaven]

I seem to recall reading that 42mpx was chosen because it is easier to generate 4k video without additional interpolation.

From the press release:

"The impressive video credentials of Sony’s new α7R II camera include the ability to record movies in 4K quality (QFHD 3840x2160) in either Super 35mm crop mode or full-frame mode.

In Super 35mm mode, the camera collects a wealth of information from approximately 1.8x as many pixels as 4K by using full pixel readout without pixel binning and oversamples the information to produce 4K movies with minimal moire and ‘jaggies’."

[telyt]

Hi,

I am honestly interested in your experience with focusing on todays cameras. I do know that you are a great expert in manual focusing, have you found something that works for you with today's digital cameras?

I've been using the Leica R8 with plain matte view screen and DMR digital back, so no I haven't found something among today's digital cameras that works for me.  The latest I tried was a D800.

I suspect VF preferences largely boil down to what we started off with.

That may be so in my case.  I started with the Nikon F and later used the Leicaflex SL, both outstanding manual-focus cameras.

Every AF SLR I've ever owned has driven me to distraction with its PDAF focusing inconsistencies & inaccuracies. The CDAF systems in current EVF cameras are IMO worlds better. If I want an uncluttered view I can just turn off all the info displays. I don't need swift AF tracking as I rarely use continuous focusing modes. But this is me. Let's not make the error of assuming our personal preferences are universal mandates.

+1