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Author Topic: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation  (Read 75952 times)

BradSmith

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #120 on: July 05, 2015, 02:14:42 pm »

I've noticed that in most threads, after they reach 3 or 4 pages, it is mostly the same 7 or 8 people posting dozens of messages, back and forth, talking NOT about the topic, but criticizing what the others have written.   And ultimately, telling each other figuratively (and sometimes literally) that they are idiots.  And it usually is the same 6 or 7 people in whichever sub-forum you look at.

Hmmmmm   What a coincidence!

They are, if nothing else, prolific.
Brad
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #121 on: July 05, 2015, 02:19:28 pm »

Conversations and discussions do tend to progress.

But yes, the descent in to nitpicking about what 'is' is appears to be inevitable. I try to avoid it and get back on track, but am obviously not always successful.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #122 on: July 05, 2015, 02:22:14 pm »

…talking NOT about the topic, but criticizing what the others have written.

Are you talking about the topic? :-)
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #123 on: July 05, 2015, 02:23:09 pm »

Thomas Ruff.

Quote
"I didn’t want to hide anything. Yet I also didn’t want the people I portrayed to show any emotion."

pdf "Does a portrait without identity still have value to us as people?" Gil Blank and Thomas Ruff in Conversation 2004.

A photo-booth would have allowed the people to show or not show emotion as they wished, but the artist photographer seems to have had his own agenda.
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elliot_n

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #124 on: July 05, 2015, 03:20:23 pm »

A photo-booth would have allowed the people to show or not show emotion as they wished, but the artist photographer seems to have had his own agenda.

Yes, his agenda is to get 'as close to an objective realism as possible'.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #125 on: July 05, 2015, 03:56:15 pm »

Is 'as close to an objective realism as possible' something Thomas Ruff claimed, somewhere?

"I wanted to do a kind of official portrait of my generation. I wanted the photographs to look like those in passports… I didn’t want the police/viewer to get any information about us. They shouldn’t be able to know what we felt at that moment, whether we were happy or sad."

Why should we take deadpan to be objective realism?


(Thanks for mentioning Thomas Ruff, the interview is quite interesting.)
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elliot_n

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #126 on: July 05, 2015, 04:45:20 pm »



Why should we take deadpan to be objective realism?



Good question. Why do the authorities forbid us from smiling in ID photographs?
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #127 on: July 05, 2015, 09:13:29 pm »

Why do the authorities forbid us from smiling in ID photographs?

To keep the facial recognition software happy -- "New Jersey bans smiles on driver's licenses to safeguard facial recognition"

US Passport Photo Requirements -- "Taken with a neutral facial expression (preferred) or a natural smile, and with both eyes open"
« Last Edit: July 05, 2015, 09:15:16 pm by Isaac »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #128 on: July 05, 2015, 10:10:34 pm »

Not allowed to smile is on the passport photographs is one thing, which has some logic behind it.
But the finishing of those photographs is abominable, I don't know what patent or machinery they use.
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #129 on: July 05, 2015, 10:26:03 pm »

And, like a mother bird faking a broken wing to draw the predators away from the nest, Isaac finally succeeds in dragging the thread into the weeds.

Another victory.

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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #130 on: July 05, 2015, 11:01:46 pm »

And, like a mother bird faking a broken wing to draw the predators away from the nest, Isaac finally succeeds in dragging the thread into the weeds.

Another victory.

Are you talking about the topic?

Please answer my previous requests that you clarify your comments. If you wish to change what you said previously, do so.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 04:19:58 pm by Isaac »
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #131 on: July 06, 2015, 07:30:12 am »

I was wrong.

It is not fun watching people argue on the Internets Tubes.  :(
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I shoot with a Camera Obscura with an optical device attached that refracts and transmits light.

Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #132 on: July 06, 2015, 12:03:03 pm »

watching people argue

Without a shared willingness to provide supporting evidence and adapt in response to counter-arguments and counter-evidence, there's no more than - What I said is right because I said it.
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amolitor

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #133 on: July 06, 2015, 12:12:18 pm »

I am, of course, willing to respond to most people's requests for clarification.

There's a very short list of people I am not willing to do that for, because of their demonstrated unwillingness to listen. If your goal is to drag me off topic and to waste my time, a) I am on to your game and b) No.

The list includes more people than Isaac, for reference.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #134 on: July 06, 2015, 12:16:25 pm »

My game is that I'm willing to have others show that I'm mistaken because that's an opportunity for me to learn.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #135 on: July 06, 2015, 12:49:22 pm »

There have been many celebrated portrait photographers. Which of them are celebrated for pushing as close to an objective realism as possible?
Thomas Ruff.
Yes, his agenda is to get 'as close to an objective realism as possible'.

Quote
"We all lost bit by bit the belief in this so-called objective capturing of real reality.

I've been asked a lot why my portraits never smile. … And in the seventies in Germany we had a so-called Terrorismushysterie: the secret service surveyed people who were against nuclear power; the government created or invented a so-called Berufsverbot. This meant left-wing teachers were dismissed, so sometimes it was better not to tell what you were thinking. All over we have those video cameras, in the supermarkets, the car park. In big places everywhere you've got those cameras. If you stand in front of a customs officer, you try to make a face like the one in your passport. So why should my portraits be communicative at a time when you could be prosecuted for your sympathies."

Journal of Contemporary Art (edit: Summer 1993, pp78-86)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 07:30:24 pm by Isaac »
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elliot_n

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #136 on: July 06, 2015, 05:11:07 pm »

Another interesting link. Thank you.

I still believe that Ruff, in his portraits, is working in an objective, realist paradigm (Neue Sachlichkeit, The Bechers etc). In his later work we become aware that his practice is about a critique of different modes of representation. And so the portraits, with their apparent objectivity, start to seem ironic.
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #137 on: July 07, 2015, 01:25:10 pm »

I still believe that Ruff, in his portraits, is working in an objective, realist paradigm … the portraits, with their apparent objectivity, …

Fortunately, for this discussion, I don't think Thomas Ruff's artistic intentions matter much. I don't think we need to bother about whether his intentions changed between the 1981 24x18cm prints and the 1985 210x165cm prints; or whether his stage direction achieves an aesthetic of objectivity, by being less than objective.

Quote
"I had lost my faith in photography and I wanted to understand what it really is about. So I decided to see what would happen when no photographer is there, just the subject and the camera." … Delahaye randomly asked homeless and destitute Parisians he encountered in the Metro to have their picture taken alone in a photo booth.

I'll certainly accept Luc Delahaye's project as pushing towards "an objective realism".


Now to the point of the question I asked John Camp: while we might find a few projects like these, won't we find an overwhelming number of celebrated portrait photographers who do not "push as close to an objective realism as possible" ?
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #138 on: July 07, 2015, 01:49:00 pm »

Why should we take deadpan to be objective realism?

Good question. …

"What's in a Face? Blankness and Significance in Contemporary Art Photography", Julian Stallabrass, 2007.

If you're interested in that sort of thing :-)
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Isaac

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Re: Ignacio Palacio - Image Manipulation
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2015, 12:24:41 pm »

I was quoting Andre Bazin to echo John Camp's post. Photography's strength is that it bypasses human manipulation.

For sake of argument, let's accept that description. That does not make pure un-manipulated photography the strongest photography. That does not make "push as close to an objective realism as possible" the prescription for a strong "photographic portrait".

Pure un-manipulated photography has weaknesses and deficiencies, which we remedy to make a stronger less-pure photography.

The question is not purity, but whether the different properties we each consider to be essential are lost or preserved.
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