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Author Topic: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1  (Read 108090 times)

Manoli

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #240 on: September 09, 2015, 11:51:27 am »

I'm actually buying one and convincing all of my well-heeled friends to buy them too to make sure that Phase stays in business as long as possible. Heaven forbid anything happen to them --

Well, a saviour by the name of Silver Fleet Capital beat you to it - so your well heeled friends can now enjoy the fruits of SFC's divine intervention.

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Doug Peterson

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #241 on: September 09, 2015, 12:45:19 pm »

Well, a saviour by the name of Silver Fleet Capital beat you to it - so your well heeled friends can now enjoy the fruits of SFC's divine intervention.

Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.

Manoli

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #242 on: September 09, 2015, 01:25:08 pm »

Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.

Bollocks.

What you, yet again, conveniently forget to mention is that their rising profit and revenue was outpaced by their rising short-term liabilities. Their liquidity ratio showed that they had less than a year before they would have had to declare the Danish equivalent of Chapter 11.  It was discussed at length in this earlier thread.

Based on figures from www.proff.dk/firma/phase-one-as/frederiksberg/fremstilling-af-optiske-instrumenter-og-fotografisk-udstyr/13477705-2/ , though their net operating profit and return on assets looked good, the liquidity ratio** did not.  ( ** the liquidity ratio expresses the company's ability to meet its short-term financial obligations, and is calculated as receivables plus cash as a percentage of short-term debt.)

The original press release stated, clearly

quote
Silverfleet Capital will acquire a majority investment in Phase One from the existing management team, who will reinvest a significant amount of money for a substantial minority stake. Bank financing for the transaction is to be provided by Nordea.
unquote

Bottom line is that SFC are now the majority shareholder with a circa 60% shareholding. Raising equity ( or 'investing' to use your euphemism) is one thing, selling a majority stake quite another.   We've been through this before and no desire to go down it again.  It's great that SFC took control,  PhaseOne seem a whole lot better for it - and long may it continue.

But leave the spin out.
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eronald

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #243 on: September 09, 2015, 02:01:25 pm »


It's actually quite funny to compare the years worth of "the sky is falling" forum posts here with a (continually rising) chart of Phase One's revenue and profit.

Sky's not falling. It's an institutional luxury product - I'd call it the Humvee of cameras.

Edmund
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #244 on: September 09, 2015, 02:27:51 pm »

I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many on forums. Go back and read the threads when the 1D launched, or the 1DsIII, or the 5DII, or the D800, or the A7R, or the 645D, or the 645Z. Then go look at the chart of Phase One's revenue and profit. If you don't see the humor...

And no, Edmund, these are not "institutional luxury products."   ::). We do sell to institutions, especially aerial mapping companies and places doing cultural heritage digitization (which is true of every camera brand as far as I can see), but the vast majority of sales are to individuals.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 02:31:04 pm by Doug Peterson »
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synn

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #245 on: September 09, 2015, 02:30:44 pm »

I can think of 12 Phase One owners who certainly do not qualify as an Institution*.



*One might qualify as a small chapel based on his waistline, but he's working on it!
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Manoli

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #246 on: September 09, 2015, 07:10:03 pm »

I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many ...

Oh, but you do and you continue to do so.
So let me help try to cure your selective amnesia by attaching below a screen shot of the 'public record' accounts you refer to and, by way of explanation, quote an earlier post:

<<
off topic, but briefly: both this link and the Silverfleet release are worth reading. The key point related to the liquidity ratio (cash plus receivables as a percentage of short-term debt). In 2012, it was about 75% and declining. Today, after the buy-out, it's at a much healthier 104%,  predictably. In other words, they're covered on a short-term annual basis for at least the next 12 months. With return on equity and profits up ( primarily due to the reduction in debt) the situation is much improved and changed - as is the ownership.

The dealers never missed an opportunity to regale you with the tired mantra of 'increasing sales, increasing profits' etc etc - was (and is) true. What they didn't say though (and possibly didn't know or suspect) was that these were not enough to cover the ever increasing short term debt, hence the crisis. Continuing to refer to it as  'aggressive expansion financing' coupled with claims that 'PhaseOne had been both profitable and growing since 2008' bordered on disinformation.

The Press release was suitably ambiguous, but was clear in one thing - the proceeds of the sale were to be reinvested in the company 'for a minority stake'. They were, the debt much reduced, hence the improved financial outlook today.

It was a straightforward 'buyout'. If anyone tries to tell you otherwise, just ask them one simple question : " In what way did selling a 60% stake, ceding both control and ownership, benefit the company and its shareholders as opposed to a simple capital increase - IPO or bond issue ? "

ps
Liquidity Ratio in Danish is Likviditetsgrad.
>>

Doug,

Today, the liquidity ratio is up to 175%, from the 104% quoted a year earlier. So even better. PhaseOne today is a rejuvenated company - everything from the XF rollout to the strategic alliances smacks of professionalism - a far cry from the Phase of a few years ago. The pricing strategy may have stayed the same but at least now there seems to be cohesion which wasn't always evident before.

Time to drop the spin and the denial - you don't need it anymore.

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eronald

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #247 on: September 10, 2015, 12:27:38 am »

I'm not conveniently leaving anything out. I'm encouraging readers to actually go look at the public financials and see if they line up with the "sky is falling" mentality held by so many on forums. Go back and read the threads when the 1D launched, or the 1DsIII, or the 5DII, or the D800, or the A7R, or the 645D, or the 645Z. Then go look at the chart of Phase One's revenue and profit. If you don't see the humor...

And no, Edmund, these are not "institutional luxury products."   ::). We do sell to institutions, especially aerial mapping companies and places doing cultural heritage digitization (which is true of every camera brand as far as I can see), but the vast majority of sales are to individuals.

Doug,

 You forgot to tell us how many you sell to institutionalised individuals :)

 I think that if Brand X is more expensive than Leica, it qualifies as a luxury brand.


Edmund
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torger

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #248 on: September 10, 2015, 03:38:56 am »

I think it requires more than just being expensive to qualify as luxury.

You can see it in the marketing, and in the users. If professionals at large stop using the product, and instead individuals which likes bling buys them, then it's luxury.

The Phase One 645 and Hasselblad 645 systems are still foremost studio pro systems. Leica's M product has largely moved into luxury space, while the S remains a pro system, and they actually adjusted the price down.

The Phase One A series looks more like a luxury product. Common with those is that they are often largely impractical with modern working pro eyes, like Lecia's M rangefinder and the Phase One A series based around Alpa's least flexible but most slick-looking body.

I think Phase, Hassy, Leica will continue to try sell to both markets, professionals and private individuals that want luxury. And of course also those individuals that want their professional systems.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 03:42:49 am by torger »
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yashima

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #249 on: September 10, 2015, 05:11:11 am »


Definitely. There are industrial vehicles that are alot more expensive than your Lambo but they are not luxury.

Anything purchased for the purpose of regular usage and for making return on your money is not luxury. So its an individual's perspective.
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synn

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #250 on: September 10, 2015, 05:34:45 am »

Can't believe you guys are trying to rationally disprove what is clearly a troll post.
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Manoli

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #251 on: September 10, 2015, 05:58:54 am »

Can't believe you guys are trying to rationally disprove what is clearly a troll post.

Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.

Phase One's financials are public record; they show a company that has been profitable and growing since the Financial Crises in 2008. SFC was investing, not acting as divine intervention.

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synn

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #252 on: September 10, 2015, 06:05:43 am »

Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.



How adorable. You know quite well what post I am referring to.
The contributions of all you non MF users in the MF forum are truly invaluable. No, really.
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eronald

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #253 on: September 10, 2015, 08:37:57 am »

Doug's post was not a troll post, just another 'less-than-forthright' pre-emptive sales pitch.
He was serious - whether or not he wrote it with a straight face - only he can answer.



Doug's sales operation financials are doubtless very solid :)

I think Phase One vendor is now a bit like real estate dealer - you just need to move a few units a year per employee. It's a far call from the high pressure environment at B&H where a guy sits behind a counter, makes a sale and shouts "Next!".

Edmund

« Last Edit: September 10, 2015, 08:39:48 am by eronald »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #254 on: September 10, 2015, 10:36:16 am »

Doug's sales operation financials are doubtless very solid :)

I think Phase One vendor is now a bit like real estate dealer - you just need to move a few units a year per employee. It's a far call from the high pressure environment at B&H where a guy sits behind a counter, makes a sale and shouts "Next!".

Edmund



Depends on the real estate dealer; many of those too are always shooting "next!" 

As someone in sales, and if you own/run a business you are in sales, I would much rather prefer the former of your description.  Relying on a high volume low price business plan is a rat race; not very fun at all.  Maintaining a small but appropriate number of clients allows you to work at a higher level and not feel like you are always under the gun.  (Of course there are problems here, like making sure not any one of your clients provides a high percentage of your revenue, since doing so would put you at the whim of that one client.) 

But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going.  I would think many would have other things to do with their life, like creating images, then to be concerned with financials and value depreciation of a company and its products.  Lets get a life people, and move on. 
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sgilbert

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #255 on: September 10, 2015, 10:07:32 pm »

"But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going."

Really?  This is The Luminous Landscape."  It's known for just this kind of thread.  If it dies down for a while, a troll will appear to revive it, and people will try to argue with him, and so it goes. 
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Ken R

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Re: Let's talk about money: Upgrade prices, value depreciation, promotions for P1
« Reply #256 on: September 11, 2015, 09:53:13 am »

"But seriously, I can't believe this thread is still going."

Really?  This is The Luminous Landscape."  It's known for just this kind of thread.  If it dies down for a while, a troll will appear to revive it, and people will try to argue with him, and so it goes. 

Exactly. There are just too many trolls with too much time.
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